Belief in the individual Christian's ability to lose salvation
#21
(06-20-2009, 06:37 PM)BrevisVir55 Wrote: Living in Nashville TN, many of the protestants around here have this curious belief that once you're saved "you're always saved". Specifically the Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, and Evangelicals.
Anyone want to have a philosophical stab at how that is?  ???

The protestants are right. If one is saved he/she is always saved. God knows from the eternity who is saved.

The only problem is, that only God knows who is saved during the mortal life of an individual, simply declare 'I am saved' is not enough. Many who declares himself saved and lives immoral life marshes toward the wide gate.
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#22
(07-07-2009, 06:10 AM)glgas Wrote:
(06-20-2009, 06:37 PM)BrevisVir55 Wrote: Living in Nashville TN, many of the protestants around here have this curious belief that once you're saved "you're always saved". Specifically the Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, and Evangelicals.
Anyone want to have a philosophical stab at how that is?  ???

The protestants are right. If one is saved he/she is always saved. God knows from the eternity who is saved.

The only problem is, that only God knows who is saved during the mortal life of an individual, simply declare 'I am saved' is not enough. Many who declares himself saved and lives immoral life marshes toward the wide gate.

The Protestants are right according to whom? I thought Catholics believed that one can lose their salvation through mortal sin (e.g. CCC 1874).
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#23
The "once saved, always saved" notion is no better than betting on the Pascal's wager. A thinking protestant would at least qualified the notion by quoting  Gospels' verses, like: "..You are saved if you confessed with your lip..." (Rom 10:10). But then he would have based his reading of selective verses on a personal interpretation, if not literally than not in context with the full Gospels. By saying "once saved" one must honestly ask how certain are you saved? If one's reply is 'i know because I have confessed Jesus Christ is Lord' then you have placed your eternal salvation on a 'good feeling' on an uncertain reading of the Gospels' verses. Your salvation is only as certain as you believe you are. IMO, this is not faith. On the other hand, the Catholic Faith is a practical faith (faith as is lived): you try your utmost to live up to the demands of your Faith ("..run the last race.."; "..try best to enter the narrow gate.." ) yet certain that God wills your salvation (knowing that "nothing is impossible with God"). Now that's not only faith but  hope in something certain too.
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#24
It is a real chink in the armor, so to speak. Any Protestant whose been around long enough witnesses sincere Christians who later on have fallen away to sin, and rejected Christ. And then in complete denial, the Protestant will say, "Well, he never really meant it, he was just pretending at being Christian".
(07-07-2009, 06:10 AM)glgas Wrote:
(06-20-2009, 06:37 PM)BrevisVir55 Wrote: Living in Nashville TN, many of the protestants around here have this curious belief that once you're saved "you're always saved". Specifically the Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, and Evangelicals.
Anyone want to have a philosophical stab at how that is?  ???

The protestants are right. If one is saved he/she is always saved. God knows from the eternity who is saved.

The only problem is, that only God knows who is saved during the mortal life of an individual, simply declare 'I am saved' is not enough. Many who declares himself saved and lives immoral life marshes toward the wide gate.


The problem with predestination is that it neglects the issue of free choice. God does indeed know who's saved, but He doesn't make that decision for us. They seem to infer He does, because once we're "saved" here on earth, we can carry on in any way we like. This is a very lazy and dangerous attitude towards salvation.

Edited to add: Look at Our Lord in Garden; at the way Judas kissed him as sign of his love for him but also his betrayal. He called him "Rabbi", yet that ultimately meant nothing.
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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#25
I'm just dropping into to say that first, not all baptists or methodists baptise at birth or the age of reason.

I was told I could be saved with a conscious decision to reject baptism, and only got baptised "symbolicly" at the behest of my baptist mom at the age of 18.

Also, Arminians are as different as night and day from Calvinists in many protestant communities; a five-point Calvinist youth pastor who told kids they were questioning jesus if they believed that Jesus died for everyone was fired at my church, and my protestant friends got into a near group-splitting argument over whether some people were born specifically as "vessels of wrath."
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#26
(07-21-2009, 09:18 PM)Norbert Wrote: my protestant friends got into a near group-splitting argument over whether some people were born specifically as "vessels of wrath."

This same debate just about wrecked the unity of my Protestant youth group, too. It eventually led to my abandonment of the faith. At the time, I concluded that the Calvinist take on predestination was the true, biblically justified one, and I thought it was abhorrent. I didn't (and don't) believe in "church shopping": what's true is true, and you shouldn't go looking elsewhere for views that seem nicer. So, I left the faith, even though for a while afterward I still believed that it was all true. It was a bad time for me, to say the least.  :(
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#27
Quote: The protestants are right. If one is saved he/she is always saved. God knows from the eternity who is saved.

The only problem is, that only God knows who is saved during the mortal life of an individual, simply declare 'I am saved' is not enough. Many who declares himself saved and lives immoral life marshes toward the wide gate.

Imprecise use of language (on their part).  Try replacing "saved" with "justified" and you get to the heart of the matter.  "Once justified, always justified" is wrong.

I am too lazy to look it up, but the parable of the man who is forgiven a large debt, then goes and oppresses his fellow servants over a tiny debt, and then is thrown into prison, is a bible passage that the OSAS protestants have problems with.
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#28
(06-20-2009, 06:42 PM)Rosarium Wrote:
(06-20-2009, 06:37 PM)BrevisVir55 Wrote: Living in Nashville TN, many of the protestants around here have this curious belief that once you're saved "you're always saved". Specifically the Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, and Evangelicals.
Anyone want to have a philosophical stab at how that is?  ???

pax vobiscum

I was tackling this issue as well recently. They seem to only take a few select verses of St. Paul's letters to come up with this. I was considering using reductio ad absurdum to show them the errors of their ways (as using the scriptures didn't work, even Jesus's direct statements didn't phase them). By their logic, since one is saved once and forever, and Heaven is eternal, one would idealy commit suicide after being "saved". They seem to have no basis for living or doing any sort of good.

A common prot counter to this is that once you are "saved" then you will want to do good, because "the joy of Christ will be with you."  Or some such.

Honestly, I think that your average person, having as people do a fallen nature, would pretty much look at it like "Okay, God loves me and forgives me and I can do whatever and still go to heaven.  God rocks so I can suck!"
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