Blaming Vatican II
(01-07-2010, 03:13 PM)SearchingCatholic Wrote: I thought I was getting an infallible church with ancient, consistent apostolic teaching so that I didn't always have to reinvent the wheel!  I sometimes feel like I was lied to and sold a bill of goods!

You are in the Church of Christ, SearchingCatholic. Don't despair! You don't need to "reinvent the wheel", so to speak.

The dogmas and doctrines of the True Faith are immutable and incorrupt. This can be easily attested. You must not confuse the current calamitous situation with the truths of the Church. Indeed, God saw fitting that you should return to His Church in this most dire moment and you must see this as an opportunity for spiritual growth and penance. Certainly, you too have a place in the restoration of the Church: through your prayer, penance, example to the others and through the constitution of a large catholic family with many vocations.

Don't despair. If you're being tempted with many doubts, seek refuge in prayer, especially with the Holy Mother. Nevertheless, you should always seek counsel from a traditional priest.
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(01-07-2010, 03:08 PM)SearchingCatholic Wrote:
(07-01-2009, 02:33 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(07-01-2009, 02:19 PM)Caritas Wrote: I am with you when you say that the documents of Vatican II are often vague and sometimes have the sound of teachings which are errors.  But, so far my investigations of these have shown that one can interpret them in ways which are not erroneous.  Should we have cause to believe that a valid ecumenical council which is headed by the pope can actually fail to understand the Sacred Magisterium well enough to avoid teaching it in error?  With that ghastly thought, I prefer to interpret V2 in the ways which are not erroneous and chalk the whole thing up to a message which failed to achieve its aim, but not one which is erroneous in its content.

Then try this:

From the Infallible Magisterium:

Blessed Pius IX, Syllabus of Errors Wrote:(As I'm sure you know, the condemnations in the Syllabus are stated negatively, i.e, they must be read with 'It is a condemned opinion that' understood before each)

15. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true. -- Allocution "Maxima quidem," June 9, 1862; Damnatio "Multiplices inter," June 10, 1851.

55. The Church ought to be separated from the .State, and the State from the Church. -- Allocution "Acerbissimum," Sept. 27, 1852

From the Council:

Dignitatis Humanae, Vatican II Wrote:The council further declares that the right to religious freedom has its foundation in the very dignity of the human person as this dignity is known through the revealed word of God and by reason itself.[2] This right of the human person to religious freedom is to be recognized in the constitutional law whereby society is governed and thus it is to become a civil right.

As I investigat traditional catholicism, this is probably the debate that gives me the biggest headache.  How can we not have a right to religious freedom?  The church herself teaches the concept of free will.  We have to either choose for or against Christ freely, without coercion and full freedom to rebel also.  As a human being, as I understand it, I have the right to believe what I choose (even if I am wrong and will suffer the eternal consequences).  PLEASE someone help me understand this!

Yes, it is frustrating. But remember that the Son of Man won't come until the "great apostasy" comes first and the man of sin is revealed.

Remember, also, that VII was not teaching infallibly. However, it has succeeding in causing the confusion of so many souls (yourself included). St. Jerome comments on Apocalypse by saying that the falling star "...may mean the fall and apostasy of great and learned men from the true faith." Remember: Something or Someone kept the council from being declared infallible. If this isn't proof of God's continual watch over the Church, I don't know what is.

These times have been prophesied for ages; it is likely we are living the reality in our times. Keep the Faith!!!
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(01-07-2010, 03:08 PM)SearchingCatholic Wrote: As I investigat traditional catholicism, this is probably the debate that gives me the biggest headache.  How can we not have a right to religious freedom?  The church herself teaches the concept of free will.  We have to either choose for or against Christ freely, without coercion and full freedom to rebel also.  As a human being, as I understand it, I have the right to believe what I choose (even if I am wrong and will suffer the eternal consequences).  PLEASE someone help me understand this!

Hey dont worry its a very fair and honest question!

Ultimately it comes down to two things the first is that it has been previously condemned by several Pontiffs, i.e it conflicts with the ordinary Magisterium of the Church (at least thats what the SSPX are arguing at moment in Rome)

Secondly its very reasonable,
A man is only free to choose good. He is not free to chose evil. He may choose evil, but it is then not freedom, as he is no longer free.

An important thing to remember is the difference between freedom and license. A man in a sense has power to chose evil over good, but does not have the FREEDOM to do so.

This boils down to the Kingship of Christ and whether or not a nation should allow all religions freedom to publicly practice their beliefs.

The Church has always taught that only Christianity should be given absolute freedom by the state, other religions may be tolerated but only in so far as it is tolerating an evil to prevent a greater evil from occuring.
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(06-30-2009, 09:00 PM)James02 Wrote: A big improvement would come if the Novus Ordo was declared a separate rite (the vulgar rite).  Then it would die off from contraception and AIDS related deaths.
This would be funny if it weren't true. I still laughed when I read it :laughing:
(06-30-2009, 09:00 PM)James02 Wrote: The answer to your question?  Tradition.  It works.  It's working.  It will take back the Church.  Vatican II?  Ignore it.
I agree, it's working isn't it?
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(01-07-2010, 03:08 PM)SearchingCatholic Wrote: As I investigat traditional catholicism, this is probably the debate that gives me the biggest headache.  How can we not have a right to religious freedom?  The church herself teaches the concept of free will.  We have to either choose for or against Christ freely, without coercion and full freedom to rebel also.  As a human being, as I understand it, I have the right to believe what I choose (even if I am wrong and will suffer the eternal consequences).  PLEASE someone help me understand this!

There was a discussion on this topic in the comments at WDTPRS which you may find helpful: http://wdtprs.com/blog/2009/10/a-report-.../#comments
Unfortunately, it may leave you feeling more confused.  These are difficult times.  :pray2:
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(01-07-2010, 09:54 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(01-07-2010, 03:08 PM)SearchingCatholic Wrote: As I investigat traditional catholicism, this is probably the debate that gives me the biggest headache.  How can we not have a right to religious freedom?  The church herself teaches the concept of free will.  We have to either choose for or against Christ freely, without coercion and full freedom to rebel also.  As a human being, as I understand it, I have the right to believe what I choose (even if I am wrong and will suffer the eternal consequences).  PLEASE someone help me understand this!

There was a discussion on this topic in the comments at WDTPRS which you may find helpful: http://wdtprs.com/blog/2009/10/a-report-.../#comments
Unfortunately, it may leave you feeling more confused.  These are difficult times.  :pray2:

Yes, they are. The devil is cunning. He knows exactly how to confuse, depress, and discourage those who love God. What better target than the Catholic Church? His plan is working very well to keep many souls from God, but in the end... Well, we all know what happens. And we all know what happens to those who lose faith and leave. This is exactly the point of all this.
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(01-07-2010, 03:13 PM)SearchingCatholic Wrote: Also, the fact I even have to search out and debate ANY of these concepts makes me want to cry!  I thought when I became Catholic and left protestantism, that I would find a church unified in it's teachings.  I didn't expect to always have to debate and figure out things for myself, which is relativism and a major weakness of protestantism.  It is too easy to see what you want to see, when you are doing the interpreting.  I thought I was getting an infallible church with ancient, consistent apostolic teaching so that I didn't always have to reinvent the wheel!  I sometimes feel like I was lied to and sold a bill of goods!

I felt the same way until I fell in with tradition. The unchanging teaching of the Church are solid as rock and no goofball heretical council can change them.
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SearchingCath

TradMavrick gave almost a concise answer as can be given...and when all is said and done, man has the free will to choose wrongly, but in the natural law he does not have the right to do so.

Freedom of religion as it is currently understood is tantamount to conceding a right in the Natural Law which does not exist.
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(01-07-2010, 09:54 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(01-07-2010, 03:08 PM)SearchingCatholic Wrote: As I investigat traditional catholicism, this is probably the debate that gives me the biggest headache.  How can we not have a right to religious freedom?  The church herself teaches the concept of free will.  We have to either choose for or against Christ freely, without coercion and full freedom to rebel also.  As a human being, as I understand it, I have the right to believe what I choose (even if I am wrong and will suffer the eternal consequences).  PLEASE someone help me understand this!

There was a discussion on this topic in the comments at WDTPRS which you may find helpful: http://wdtprs.com/blog/2009/10/a-report-.../#comments
Unfortunately, it may leave you feeling more confused.  These are difficult times.  :pray2:

From that discussion:

Quote:In all honestly, how many trads want to see the government or secret police shuttering all non-Catholic houses of worship and arresting our non-Catholic neighbors who propagate their religion?

Which is a ridiculous and inflammatory comment because the Church never did that.  It tolerated and restricted false worship, but it didn't shutter non-Catholic houses of worship.  It even protected the Jews and allowed the their worship (with restrictions) when the masses wanted to attack them.

Then there's this guy:

Quote:Of course with the SSPX document to Pope John Paul II, what a pity they did not understand what the Church taught in Vatican II.

Really, it’s nothing different than what St. Thomas Aquinas has said on erring conscience

Maybe he better read where St. Thomas said we could coerce heretics back to the faith.  You know, torture them.

The ignorance, rhetoric, and hypocrisy is just ridiculous.
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Quote: As I investigat traditional catholicism, this is probably the debate that gives me the biggest headache.  How can we not have a right to religious freedom?  The church herself teaches the concept of free will.  We have to either choose for or against Christ freely, without coercion and full freedom to rebel also.  As a human being, as I understand it, I have the right to believe what I choose (even if I am wrong and will suffer the eternal consequences).  PLEASE someone help me understand this!

The Church has always taught that you can not be coerced.  It even teaches that in many case it is best to "tolerate" heretical sects and Jews practicing their false religion.

But let me ask you this question: Should a Wiccan be allowed to sacrifice little puppies to the devil?  In a Catholic country, should the government have the right to suppress this activity?  Now this is a big difference from FORCING a Wiccan to be baptized, it is merely preventing the Wiccan to do what Catholics know objectively to be evil.

I hope this helps.

As far as unity in teaching, the official Church is unified.  However, in the Protestant sects you can't find agreement in key, important to your salvation topics, like are you saved by Grace alone through predestination or are you saved by Faith alone? (Put a Calvinist in a room with an Evangelical and before long fists will fly).  Can you lose salvation by sinning and rejecting God? 

The Catholic Church is the Rock and Pillar of truth.
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