Bp W column, 7.4.09
(07-06-2009, 11:02 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote:
(07-06-2009, 10:42 PM)columba Wrote: It is fun to read histories speculating about the past but current census bureau reports are less fanciful. Bishop Williamson's argument is not applied to medieval womenfolk. The article is based upon his own eye-witness and well-known demography.

Based on the article alone, all I can see is that Williamson thinks tennis makes women infertile. A lot of what I'm gathering from Williamson is from his supporters in this thread:

You are mistaken. +Williamson's article clearly refers to professional tennis as played at Wimbleton and his position cannot be expanded to include all the derailment on this tread discussing informal sport and women's exercise.
(07-06-2009, 11:02 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote: If, in fact, Williamson's position is that women playing sports or engaging in hard physical activity is wrong (I'm not saying for a fact that it is or isn't; only going by the attitudes of certain posters here), then it damns the women of Christendom's most faithful age. And that is a problem, especially when trads habitually cite "the way things were done before the Council" as a measuring stick of faithfulness.

As I noted before and as you partially admit, your representation of +Williamson's position is inaccurate. Your short historical excerpt of unknown completeness and accuracy is not in any way equivalent to +Williamson's Wimbleton report or the present knowledge of demographic decline. The level female athletics, birthrates, and Catholic religiosity in Medieval Europe must have varied greatly over time and place. You attempt to compare apples with oranges. Finally, the traditionalist observation that novelties introduced in the wake of Vatican II are bad does not translate into a belief that everything before the Council was good. There was plenty of evil during the medieval era.

+Williamson's analysis applies only in the limited sense that it was given. Let us stick to that.

Do you agree that in present times, the introduction of a culture promoting professional women's sports has accompanied a simultaneous reduction in birthrates? Do you admit to a possible connection?
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(07-06-2009, 11:01 PM)Anastasia Wrote: And my non-Western Catholic friends see nothing wrong with women's sports. Do you see your double standard? You demand that all your experiences are to be taken as representative of the whole, while everybody else's are an aberration. You did the same thing when Harlequin King pointed out the existence of women's sports in the Middle Ages. As usual, HK for the win!
As to the last remark, you again assume that Williamson is self-evidently right about the cause of culture collapse, so that disagreeing with him means agreeing with Muslims repopulating Europe. A clear non-sequitur.

Your non-Western Catholic friends see "nothing wrong" with our culture promoting professional women's sports. Do they also see no connection with decreased birthrates?

HK's introduction of semi-related Medieval history takes the focus off present demographic decline but I think his posts are the most serious attempt to refute Bishop Williamson's position so far in what has otherwise been largely a succession of misdirection, obfuscation, and sarcasm.

Even if you think the introduction of a culture promoting professional women's sports has nothing to do with the simultaneous reduction in birthrates, doesn't Bishop Williamson deserve credit for grappling with an issue that other bishops flee? How can Catholics dismiss H.E's position without a solid refutation?
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(07-07-2009, 12:22 AM)columba Wrote: Do you agree that in present times, the introduction of a culture promoting professional women's sports has accompanied a simultaneous reduction in birthrates? Do you admit to a possible connection?

I can see that female professional athletes can't have children while maintaining their careers.

I can't say just how influential women's sports is with our culture in general. It seems established in the thread that women's sports, while present in most countries, is a niche market compared to men's sports. Most girls don't aspire to become professional athletes, even if they played sports in school. Therefore, I don't see how women's sports has any effect on the general birthrate. Feel free to re-iterate something if I'm missing it.


Speaking on personal experience from high school and college alone, though........ I'd say that women who were interested in sports in school are far more likely to have children than non-sporty women.
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....I often wonder if +Williamson writes this stuff with a cheeky look in his eye and sits back to watch all the reactions.

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Quote:    "How many young girls there are who do not see any wrongdoing in following certain shameless styles like so many sheep. They certainly would blush if they could guess the impression they make and the feelings they evoke in those who see them. Do they not see the harm resulting from excess in certain gymnastic exercises and sports not suitable for virtuous girls? What sins are committed or provoked by conversations which are too free, by immodest shows, by dangerous reading. How lax have consciences become, how pagan morals!"
-Pope Pius XII
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Bishop Williamson decided to treat a subject he has absolutely no knowledge about.

http://www.womenstennisblog.com/2009/03/...-wta-tour/
Quote:It’s official: Kim Clijsters will again play on the Sony Ericsson WTA Tour. Her return from retirement is planned for the US hardcourt season.

The former world No.1 has asked for Cincinnati, Toronto and US Open wildcards. According to the plans, the tennis player who retired in May 2007 will make her comeback on August 10, at the Cincinnati Open.

"When I started preparing for the Wimbledon game with Steffi Graf I felt this drive. I wanted a new challenge. This is just for fun for now to see if I can do it," said the 25-year-old Clijsters, the winner of 34 singles titles.

"I don't need to be number one again. I have done that and I don't need to do it again. I am just going to see how things evolve."

After retiring from tennis, Clijsters married basketball player Brian Lynch and gave birth to daughter Jada. (source: Reuters, photo: Stephane Martinache)

http://thetennistimes.com/lindsay-davenp...baby-girl/
Quote:It has been reported that three time Grand Slam champion Lindsay Davenport has given birth to her second child. Davenport gave birth to a healthy baby girl and she and husband Jon Leach cant be happier. They have named the new baby Lauren Andrus Davenport Leach. The married couple already have a two-year old son named Jagger.

Tony Godsick, the tennis star’s agent, said on Sunday that both the mom and daughter are doing great. He added that the other members of the family were ecstatic.

(bolded by me for emphasis)

Apparently one can be both a mother and a professional tennis player at the same time.
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(07-07-2009, 09:23 AM)Underdog Wrote: Bishop Williamson decided to treat a subject he has absolutely no knowledge about.

http://www.womenstennisblog.com/2009/03/...-wta-tour/
Quote:It’s official: Kim Clijsters will again play on the Sony Ericsson WTA Tour. Her return from retirement is planned for the US hardcourt season.

The former world No.1 has asked for Cincinnati, Toronto and US Open wildcards. According to the plans, the tennis player who retired in May 2007 will make her comeback on August 10, at the Cincinnati Open.

"When I started preparing for the Wimbledon game with Steffi Graf I felt this drive. I wanted a new challenge. This is just for fun for now to see if I can do it," said the 25-year-old Clijsters, the winner of 34 singles titles.

"I don't need to be number one again. I have done that and I don't need to do it again. I am just going to see how things evolve."

After retiring from tennis, Clijsters married basketball player Brian Lynch and gave birth to daughter Jada. (source: Reuters, photo: Stephane Martinache)

http://thetennistimes.com/lindsay-davenp...baby-girl/
Quote:It has been reported that three time Grand Slam champion Lindsay Davenport has given birth to her second child. Davenport gave birth to a healthy baby girl and she and husband Jon Leach cant be happier. They have named the new baby Lauren Andrus Davenport Leach. The married couple already have a two-year old son named Jagger.

Tony Godsick, the tennis star’s agent, said on Sunday that both the mom and daughter are doing great. He added that the other members of the family were ecstatic.

(bolded by me for emphasis)

Apparently one can be both a mother and a professional tennis player at the same time.

Steffi Graf:
After retiring, she married Andre Agassi on October 22, 2001, with only their mothers as witnesses.[20] Four days later Steffi gave birth, six weeks prematurely, to their son Jaden Gil (named after Andre's longtime trainer Gil Reyes). Their daughter, Jaz Elle, was born October 3, 2003.


Frankly, it seems tennis pros don't have a long career. 

Maybe we should ridicule the spinsters for not having babies.  They're obviously doing something wrong and contributing to the birth rate decline.
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(07-07-2009, 09:23 AM)Underdog Wrote: Bishop Williamson decided to treat a subject he has absolutely no knowledge about.

http://www.womenstennisblog.com/2009/03/...-wta-tour/
Quote:It’s official: Kim Clijsters will again play on the Sony Ericsson WTA Tour. Her return from retirement is planned for the US hardcourt season.

The former world No.1 has asked for Cincinnati, Toronto and US Open wildcards. According to the plans, the tennis player who retired in May 2007 will make her comeback on August 10, at the Cincinnati Open.

"When I started preparing for the Wimbledon game with Steffi Graf I felt this drive. I wanted a new challenge. This is just for fun for now to see if I can do it," said the 25-year-old Clijsters, the winner of 34 singles titles.

"I don't need to be number one again. I have done that and I don't need to do it again. I am just going to see how things evolve."

After retiring from tennis, Clijsters married basketball player Brian Lynch and gave birth to daughter Jada. (source: Reuters, photo: Stephane Martinache)

http://thetennistimes.com/lindsay-davenp...baby-girl/
Quote:It has been reported that three time Grand Slam champion Lindsay Davenport has given birth to her second child. Davenport gave birth to a healthy baby girl and she and husband Jon Leach cant be happier. They have named the new baby Lauren Andrus Davenport Leach. The married couple already have a two-year old son named Jagger.

Tony Godsick, the tennis star’s agent, said on Sunday that both the mom and daughter are doing great. He added that the other members of the family were ecstatic.

(bolded by me for emphasis)

Apparently one can be both a mother and a professional tennis player at the same time.

I do think you've completely missed the point.
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(07-07-2009, 03:34 AM)Iuvenalis Wrote:
Quote:    "How many young girls there are who do not see any wrongdoing in following certain shameless styles like so many sheep. They certainly would blush if they could guess the impression they make and the feelings they evoke in those who see them. Do they not see the harm resulting from excess in certain gymnastic exercises and sports not suitable for virtuous girls? What sins are committed or provoked by conversations which are too free, by immodest shows, by dangerous reading. How lax have consciences become, how pagan morals!"
-Pope Pius XII

And what about this, ladies?
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"CERTAIN gymnastic exercises and sports"
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