Poll: Which do you think is more probable in the next 81 years?
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Worst Crisis Poll
#21
(07-29-2009, 10:59 AM)NonSumDignus Wrote: Certainly Protestantism. We probably wouldn't be in our current crisis if it wasn't for Protestantism. It was the gateway for a million different heresies, and a stepping stone for much worse ideologies

This is certainly true had it not been for the Protestant heretics or as JPII the tiny liked to call them our seperated bretheren  ::) we wouldnt have the new Mass because we wouldnt have had a freemason trying to appease the Protestants by whipping out a protestant "Mass" in "69".
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#22
(07-30-2009, 12:22 AM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:
(07-30-2009, 12:02 AM)epalinurus Wrote: The reason I ask is that if it was founded before the Easter Sunday, I might select Good Friday as the time of greatest crisis, but perhaps that is not an answer within the spirit of the question you are asking.  But compared to how it must have appeared to everyone on Good Friday, things today don't look quite as bad.

I see what you're saying. I think the apostles went through a major crisis when they were hiding behind closed doors all day Holy Saturday.. I can't image the doubts, the grief and the fear, not to mention the horror of having one of their own betray the Lord and commit suicide on the same day.

But Good Friday is called "Good" because it is the greatest day in the history of salvation. That's the paradox of the Cross - or the "folly" as St. Paul put it.

- Lisa


Sure, but it didn't look "Good" at the time to the apostles, it looked desperate, or nearly hopeless.  To Judas, it was hopeless. 

But as I think about it, your question is more about what historical crisis is/was the biggest, the hardest for the Church to weather.  Good Friday was pretty much out of Christians' hands until the Resurrection changed the terms completely and put the Church on the road to final formation -- through the Ascension and Pentecost.  In fact, there is no Church, obviously, without the Resurrection, so I suppose the question needs to focus post-Resurrection.  The crises you list are historical ones faced by Christians, post Resurrection, when Christians had critical issues to face in light of the fullness of the Faith.  In light of all that, in a sense, we have today more "tools" at our disposal to weather these times (the Sacraments) than the apostles did, as they ran for cover Good Friday morning.  Anyway, sorry for the self-debate, but I've always taken solace in the fact that current troubles seem considerable less desperate than it must have appeared to the apostles that weekend, so your question brought that back to me.  Anyway, I'll limit it to post Pentecost events.

ps -- I'd be interested in some of our scholar/learned Catholics' view on how serious, in comparison to the crises you list, the early Church dispute re Jew-Gentile actually was.  It seemed to be a criticial issue whether the Church was going to require people to become observant Jews before they could become Christians (if I understand the gist of that dispute), with St Paul arguing (and winning with St Peter's support) that Christ's mandate was to "make my name known to Jews and Gentiles alike."  That would have been a huge drag on growth, had St Paul lost that debate.

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#23
I don't know if this is pertinent but along the lines of Good Friday seen through the eyes of the Apostles and all of their fear, and terribly mixed up emotions, not forgetting Judas and how complex that would have been, it comes to me, that in certain times when it appears the Churchmen have abandoned us, it is Mary that stays at her station keeping. That's all.
tim
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#24
(07-30-2009, 10:31 AM)timoose Wrote: I don't know if this is pertinent but along the lines of Good Friday seen through the eyes of the Apostles and all of their fear, and terribly mixed up emotions, not forgetting Judas and how complex that would have been, it comes to me, that in certain times when it appears the Churchmen have abandoned us, it is Mary that stays at her station keeping. That's all.
tim

That was before the Church was established, but I imagine the best place to have been at that time would have been at the Foot of the Cross.
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#25
(07-30-2009, 08:02 AM)epalinurus Wrote: But as I think about it, your question is more about what historical crisis is/was the biggest, the hardest for the Church to weather.  Good Friday was pretty much out of Christians' hands until the Resurrection changed the terms completely and put the Church on the road to final formation -- through the Ascension and Pentecost.  In fact, there is no Church, obviously, without the Resurrection, so I suppose the question needs to focus post-Resurrection.  The crises you list are historical ones faced by Christians, post Resurrection, when Christians had critical issues to face in light of the fullness of the Faith.  In light of all that, in a sense, we have today more "tools" at our disposal to weather these times (the Sacraments) than the apostles did, as they ran for cover Good Friday morning.  Anyway, sorry for the self-debate, but I've always taken solace in the fact that current troubles seem considerable less desperate than it must have appeared to the apostles that weekend, so your question brought that back to me.  Anyway, I'll limit it to post Pentecost events.

No, you're fine. I was thinking post-Pentecost and post-early Church. I could have listed the persecutions under Nero and other emperors. For sure those were trying times for Christians and there were many who apostatized. In fact, there was a debate later as to what to do with apostates. Do we let them back in the Church or not? Of course, the Church teaches forgiveness of sin and so apostates were allowed back in (even if they had to public penance for the rest of their lives).

And every age of the Church has had heresies to battle. Before Arianism was gnosticism, and according to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Arianism was an outgrowth of gnosticism and other heresies. According to the same encyclopedia, the unrest which led to the Protestant revolt had its beginnings in the Western Schism - which itself was a symptom of a hierarchy that was already growing increasingly corrupt. No heresy is ever really "new" and every crisis has its roots in a prior crisis.

Judaizing, Gnosticism, Islam, the Eastern Schism, would have to fall under "Other" here. I wanted to keep the list short and focus on what I felt were the worst attacks on faith and morals and did the greatest damage to (or caused the greatest scandal for) the populace. I included the "Other" choice so that people like yourself and Mitos and timoose could offer your own perspective, which you did. And I thank you!

- Lisa
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#26
StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:The Protestant crisis has been going on for 500 years and shows no signs of slowing!

I beg to differ.

A hundred years ago Protestantism was on its last legs. Many commentators had written it off as dead. Protestantism has only been able to survive through an Evangelical retooling. Yet one has a hard time thinking of where Protestantism will go when Evangelicalism goes by the wayside. At this stage it really cannot reinvent itself once more (how does one get more basic than fundamentalism?).

Mainline Protestantism, which was only really in Western Europe and the United States at its height, has totally collapsed in both places within the last fifty years. South American and African Evangelicalism is keeping Protestantism alive. Yet Evangelicalism has serious flaws. I recall reading that the average "megachurch" has an almost 100% turnover ever two years or so. While those number might be less dramatic in smaller, more stable churches, I would reckon they're still very high.

As such, I would feel safe saying Protestantism is in its very deaththrows.
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#27
(07-30-2009, 10:56 AM)Credo Wrote:
StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:The Protestant crisis has been going on for 500 years and shows no signs of slowing!

I beg to differ.

A hundred years ago Protestantism was on its last legs. Many commentators had written it off as dead. Protestantism has only been able to survive through an Evangelical retooling. Yet one has a hard time thinking of where Protestantism will go when Evangelicalism goes by the wayside. At this stage it really cannot reinvent itself once more (how does one get more basic than fundamentalism?).

Mainline Protestantism, which was only really in Western Europe and the United States at its height, has totally collapsed in both places within the last fifty years. South American and African Evangelicalism is keeping Protestantism alive. Yet Evangelicalism has serious flaws. I recall reading that the average "megachurch" has an almost 100% turnover ever two years or so. While those number might be less dramatic in smaller, more stable churches, I would reckon they're still very high.

As such, I would feel safe saying Protestantism is in its very deaththrows.

I understand what you're saying about mainline Protestantism. But I was thinking of its consequences: the birthing of new false sects. Every day, thanks to Luther and Calvin, another denomination, or rather NON-denomination or megachurch is born. Their evangelism will suffer only when Catholics (re)learn how to evangelize. Catholics have the TRUTH. We have the Holy Spirit and the sacraments on our side. St. Francis de Sales in his own time was responsible for the conversion of 60,000 Calvinists. One of his methods for bringing them back into the Church was his constant zealous preaching (in imitation of the apostles) and writing "tracts" or leaflets and placing them under the doors of people who would NOT come to hear him preach. The irony is, evangelicals have adopted his methods for drawing people away from the Church! Give me more bishops like Francis de Sales and I'll feel the hope. Give me bishops today who stop promoting relativism and I'll feel HOPE.

- Lisa
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#28
This crisis is by far the worst.

Modern-ism is the synthesis of all heresies. It is a denial of ALL dogma as it denies the existence of dogma (as traditionally understood).

"Pascendi Dominici Gregis" Wrote:3. Although they express their astonishment that We should number them amongst the enemies of the Church, no one will be reasonably surprised that We should do so, if, leaving out of account the internal disposition of the soul, of which God alone is the Judge, he considers their tenets, their manner of speech, and their action. Nor indeed would he be wrong in regarding them as the most pernicious of all the adversaries of the Church. For, as We have said, they put into operation their designs for her undoing, not from without but from within. Hence, the danger is present almost in the very veins and heart of the Church, whose injury is the more certain from the very fact that their knowledge of her is more intimate. Moreover, they lay the ax not to the branches and shoots, but to the very root, that is, to the faith and its deepest fibers. And once having struck at this root of immortality, they proceed to diffuse poison through the whole tree, so that there is no part of Catholic truth which they leave untouched, none that they do not strive to corrupt. Further, none is more skillful, none more astute than they, in the employment of a thousand noxious devices; for they play the double part of rationalist and Catholic, and this so craftily that they easily lead the unwary into error; and as audacity is their chief characteristic, there is no conclusion of any kind from which they shrink or which they do not thrust forward with pertinacity and assurance To this must be added the fact, which indeed is well calculated to deceive souls, that they lead a life of the greatest activity, of assiduous and ardent application to every branch of learning, and that they possess, as a rule, a reputation for irreproachable morality. Finally, there is the fact which is all but fatal to the hope of cure that their very doctrines have given such a bent to their minds, that they disdain all authority and brook no restraint; and relying upon a false conscience, they attempt to ascribe to a love of truth that which is in reality the result of pride and obstinacy.
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#29
(07-30-2009, 11:32 AM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:
(07-30-2009, 10:56 AM)Credo Wrote:
StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:The Protestant crisis has been going on for 500 years and shows no signs of slowing!

I beg to differ.

A hundred years ago Protestantism was on its last legs. Many commentators had written it off as dead. Protestantism has only been able to survive through an Evangelical retooling. Yet one has a hard time thinking of where Protestantism will go when Evangelicalism goes by the wayside. At this stage it really cannot reinvent itself once more (how does one get more basic than fundamentalism?).

Mainline Protestantism, which was only really in Western Europe and the United States at its height, has totally collapsed in both places within the last fifty years. South American and African Evangelicalism is keeping Protestantism alive. Yet Evangelicalism has serious flaws. I recall reading that the average "megachurch" has an almost 100% turnover ever two years or so. While those number might be less dramatic in smaller, more stable churches, I would reckon they're still very high.

As such, I would feel safe saying Protestantism is in its very deaththrows.

I understand what you're saying about mainline Protestantism. But I was thinking of its consequences: the birthing of new false sects. Every day, thanks to Luther and Calvin, another denomination, or rather NON-denomination or megachurch is born. Their evangelism will suffer only when Catholics (re)learn how to evangelize. Catholics have the TRUTH. We have the Holy Spirit and the sacraments on our side. St. Francis de Sales in his own time was responsible for the conversion of 60,000 Calvinists. One of his methods for bringing them back into the Church was his constant zealous preaching (in imitation of the apostles) and writing "tracts" or leaflets and placing them under the doors of people who would NOT come to hear him preach. The irony is, evangelicals have adopted his methods for drawing people away from the Church! Give me more bishops like Francis de Sales and I'll feel the hope. Give me bishops today who stop promoting relativism and I'll feel HOPE.

- Lisa

I agree with you there, we Catholics need to re-learn on how to evangelize. Perhaps we could adopt St. Francis de Sales as the Patron Saint in this effort, using his tried and tested methods that evangelical protestants have taken.
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#30
I voted current crisis but agree with the poster who said there's worse to come. If you look at the question in terms of the state of the (remaining) Church, this one's arguably the worst we've seen.
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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