Poll: Which do you think is more probable in the next 81 years?
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Worst Crisis Poll
#41
its goin down right now.
NOW!
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#42
I said the current crisis mostly because we have a confusion that never existed before.  I mean seriously, you have people who trying to make the faith, inclusive, gender neutral, and so on.  In addition, you have people who are carrying out authority by claiming the spirit of Vatican II enables them to do things outside of their juridisication.  You have over one billion baptised Catholics, and I gurantee you, fewer than 1% can probably name all the ten commandments or name a pope beyond John Paul II. 

I have some friends that say they are Catholic, but behave much more like Protestants.  They ask me where did I learn this, and I am like you know there are things called Papal Encyclicals, Bulls, we have books like Summa Theologica and so on.  And when I defend the traditional position, I am kind of just ignored.  I just wait for someone to say that I am not the spirit of vatican II
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#43
(08-01-2009, 10:00 PM)devotedknuckles Wrote: its goin down right now.
NOW!

So, you think it won't get any worse or that the worst is over?

Stick with me here, knucks.  It's GONNA get worse.

Lock and load.
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#44
its gonna get far far far far far worse
this is nothign yet
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#45
(08-01-2009, 09:50 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: I was inspired to create the poll because some people in other threads kept insisting that the current crisis is unparalleled like it was FACT. I don’t think we’ve lived long enough to assess the damage of the current crisis. I know some of you are thinking: what more evidence does she need? There's the Novus Ordo Mass, the decline in vocations, and Catholics who don't even know the Faith. I’m just not sure that other eras have not also experienced periods of sharp decline in vocations, Mass attendance, and bad catechesis. One need only read the life of any saint to see that chaos and ignorance was often the standard of the day.

As bad as Popes were and bishops of the past were, they didn't infect or confuse the theology, liturgy, etc., of the Universal Church as is going on today.  Even the Arian heresy didn't affect the Universal Church.

Quote:Someone mentioned that Protestantism wasn’t as bad as the current crisis because it was an “attack from without.”  Well, it may be an outside attack now, but in the beginning it was an inside attack. Luther was a priest, and the original Protestants were Catholics. So instead of staying within the Church and reforming abuses, they left the Church, rejected her doctrine almost wholesale and ripped to shreds the unity of Christianity. I look at the estimated number of Protestants today (800 million worldwide) and consider that they are supposed to be Catholics and would be Catholics had there been no Protestant revolt, and it makes it even more devastating to me. An estimated 800 million "shoulda been" Catholics.

The difference is they weren't calling themselves Catholics when doing it as the Modernists, Liberals, etc. do today.  They left the Church, they didn't stay within to demolish it.

If I took my kids to a Lutheran service, I could say "that isn't Catholic" but if I take them to a Novus Ordo with wacky stuff going on, and it says "Catholic Church (excuse me - Catholic Worship Community)" on the sign outside and everyone claims to be Catholic, then what?

That's the difference.  The destroyers are working from within now - the Protestants had enough class and intellectual honesty to leave.

Quote:1 And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten diadems, and upon his heads names of blasphemy. 2 And the beast, which I saw, was like to a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his own strength, and great power.

...

11 And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns, like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon.  12 And he executed all the power of the former beast in his sight; and he caused the earth, and them that dwell therein, to adore the first beast, whose wound to death was healed.

DR notes:

1 "A beast"... This first beast with seven heads and ten horns, is probably the whole company of infidels, enemies and persecutors of the people of God, from the beginning to the end of the world. The seven heads are seven kings, that is, seven principal kingdoms or empires, which have exercised, or shall exercise, tyrannical power over the people of God; of these, five were then fallen, viz.: the Egyptian, Assyrian, Chaldean, Persian, and Grecian monarchies: one was present, viz., the empire of Rome: and the seventh and chiefest was to come, viz., the great Antichrist and his empire. The ten horns may be understood of ten lesser persecutors.

11 "Another beast"... This second beast with two horns, may be understood of the heathenish priests and magicians; the principal promoters both of idolatry and persecution.

Speculation...

Two horns also refers to a bishop's mitre - the points are literally referred to as horns (cornua) , and the Church is now full of bishops who are wolves in sheep's clothing.  The first beast had 10 heads and could refer to the mother and synthesis of all heresies, Modernism, that was thought defeated, but has been brought back to life by apostate and ne'er-do-well bishops.

Probably not correct, but if it is we'll know because what comes next is this:

Quote:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple, saying to the seven angels: Go, and pour out the seven vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. 2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth, and there fell a sore and grievous wound upon men, who had the character of the beast; and upon them that adored the image thereof

Quote:Seriously, is this the Great Apostasy spoken of in scripture? Or do we consider Protestants apostates? If the answer is no, we can't consider the current crisis the Great Apostasy either.. and yet I have seen some refer to it as exactly that.

It is A great apostasy, but who knows if it is THE great apostasy?
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#46
What about Gallicanism and Jansenism which led to the suppresion of the Jesuits, which let to the French Revolution?
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#47
The biggest difference I see between now and the past is that now, anything goes, as long as it doesn't look too traditional.  Luther had 95 Theses, which may seem like a lot of points of contention, but at least Protestants then still believed in one God, Jesus Christ as Savior, Scripture, etc.  They didn't think religion didn't matter, or that one faith was as good as another.  They were closer to Catholic than many liberal priests teaching at Catholic universities today, whom you'd be hard-pressed to get to agree with one bit of Church teaching unless it's some vague post-1972 social justice stuff.

Look at it this way: if you formed a Council today to combat heresy along the lines of Trent or Nicea, where would you even start?  With the fact that many Catholics don't believe in the Real Presence?  That they don't believe in sin, Hell, Satan, or eternal punishment?  That they ignore Church teaching on artificial birth prevention and (at least 50%) abortion?  That they say, "I don't need a priest for Confession; I'll confess to God, not to a man"?  That they attend non-Catholic worship services with no qualms whatsoever?

Hundreds of years ago, if a large number of people had adopted any one of those attitudes, it would have been treated as a major heresy, and there might have been councils and/or inquisitions to combat it.  Now, the laity and a significant number of the clergy are infected with all those and more, and we're told everything's under control, we just need to understand Vatican II better, and it'd help if trads would stop being so mean and just get along.

Which isn't to say it can't get worse.  At least we in the first world are still free to practice our Faith the way we're supposed to.  It may be socially looked down on, even by many fellow Catholics, but we can still do it.  No one's burning down our churches or putting us in jail or up against the wall, as happened to millions of Catholics in so many countries last century.  It could be worse.
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#48
Whether it's called gnosticism or Arianism, Nestorianism, Albegensian, protestantism, modernist, secular, communist, 'name it & claim it',  ad nauseum, it is the same thing: Satan's efforts to diminish God in the sight of humans, to bring Him down to our level and deny His divinity.  The evil one chooses men (and women) in each generation and persuades them to advance the cause just a little more.  Satan doesn't need us to be Stalin; worshipping the environment or being a radical member of PeTA or working for social justice sans Jesus will work just fine - for now.

I was going to contend that Arianism/Nestorianism/Gnosticism never really ended, they just got new clothes and a trendier label for the times.  The Renaissance is also known as 'the disenchantment of the world'.  I used to think that referred to the loss of fairies and leprechauns, gnomes and trolls; but one of the subtle underpinnings of the reformation was getting rid of 'superstitious' elements of the Catholic Church - or were they trying to shed themselves of the Holy Spirit and reduce Our Lord to an ideal CEO?
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