Obeying Civil Laws
(08-01-2009, 10:06 AM)devotedknuckles Wrote: no they do not bind under sin. u can j walk all u want and u wont go to hell.
speed limit is tricky because now u are in a vehicle and have a social responsibility not to kill someone. but use the brain God has given u> u can speed at times without putting someone at risk.
trespassing well no not a sin. but u might get blown away depending on who's land u do it.
drinking under age is not a sin either.
neither is profanity

"All naughty speech let it not proceed out of your mouth: but if there be any good to the
edifying of the faith, that it may give grace to the hearers." Ephesians 4:29

"For he that will love life, and see good days: let him refrain his tongue from evil, and
his lips that they speak not guile." 1 Peter 3:10
"This country is planted thick with laws from coast to coast, man's law's not God's, and if you tear them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think that you could stand in the wind that would blow then?"
Well the Lord has provided me a time to reflect on my answer. My computer while I was responding to this froze and my temper and anger for this issue was transferred to the machine. So being more clear in my thinking and less hysterical this is my defense of underage drinking. Those families  that taught their children to drink had brought this with them from Europe. Specifically places like Germany, Italy, Bohemia, Czechoslovakia, and others. All that I knew had come from Catholic cultures as I became acquainted through the Parish. Why would something that has been practiced for centuries with the tacit approval of the Church need a law? If parents are responsible for the education of their children and we have a right to withdraw them from objectionable sex education courses why do we not have the right to teach them to drink responsibly.

Just speaking from my experiences. Had more parents taken the responsibility and taught their children to drink we would not have as much of a drug problem in this country. The thrill of the forbidden has driven much of this. We oppose macro-evolution, and rubbers as a solution for hiv/aids, why not drinking laws.

Please do not misunderstand me. I'm not for stupid sinful behaviour. The burbanite fad for parents of throwing a kegger for their very own teeny bopper and his friends with benefits is not what I'm speaking about. I'm not talking about a teenager driving drunk especially in burbia where you can go 100 mph between semaphores which are several miles apart.

I can't see where a law can usurp a parents rights and privileges. That's all.
I personally believe that children who are taught responsible drinking at a young age do not have the problems American teens have. But yet I've seen many Trad families try this and it does NOT work in an American culture. Despite being raised as Trads, kids are still AMERICAN Trads and they will still see alcahol as taboo. Their friend who can't drink will latch on to them knowing they can drink and there's alcahol in the house. Raising a kid as a good Catholic in America will not shake off American ways of thinking. I've seen it happen.

There is no reason kids need to be drinking, therefore they do not have a right to break those laws.
(08-01-2009, 12:31 PM)timoose Wrote: Just to pick one nit. Underage drinking if not in excess is no sin. We were taught to drink by our parents when they thought we were mature enough. This is the duty of the parents not society to train their children. When a child was small wine would be mixed with water for them and they would drink it at family special dinners. This is according to Italian customs from Ancient times. Some where around seventeen years old young men were allowed to drink in their homes with their parents approval. This is so they could be monitored and taught not to become drunk and stupid. It worked like this you were allowed to drink but if you got drunk and lost your reason then you were punished. By the time me and my friends started to look for girls and run around the cool bars we already knew how to drink. Unlike the Suburban Protestants that puked and made a mess every time the drank in our cool new hangouts. You could spot them a few blocks away weaving while walking always looking for and trying to remember where they parked. I hope this is reasoned enough but I agree with Alice, DK, and Laszlo.

I completely agree with you.  I don't know this for a fact, but I'd guess this is more related to our Protestant/Prohibition past than anything else.  Parents can decide if their kids can have water and wine with Sunday dinner, which mine did.  This kind of silly overlegislation is what breeds disrespect for laws that are actually in the province of government, laws that really matter. 

Broadly speaking and within reason, the law ought to focus on punishing/restricting behavior that results in harm to others (where others cannot easily avoid the harm)  or actions that will likely result in definable harm to others.  I also am opposed to laws that abridge my freedom, where the harm is mostly to me.  I also reject the use of the welfare state as an excuse to legislate my behavior.  ("Well, we're going have to pay for your ____________." (fill in the blank -- medical care resulting from smoking, your kids social security payments, etc.)  The welfare state should not be used to bootstrap the deprivation of civil liberties and basic freedoms from its citizens.  Through such laws, we become -- little by little -- less free.  That's my reaction, off the top of my head.
Didi, the thing I'm saying is with the parents guidance not on their own accord.Those parents failure does not make the law just.

You and I agree that America is the problem. It has turned us all into Prods. Me too and maybe more grievously. Particularly I do not see any solution that we can any longer apply to this mess, it is up to the BVM. This synthesis of errors has all of us in some ways confused and unable to fix this. I think Thomas Aquinas says at a certain point we can pick up arms in defense against a wicked regime, that time is coming soon.

We have no support from either party and our Shepherds appear not to care where we wander, and seem to add confusion. Twenty percent of Catholics assist at Sunday Mass and eighty percent use artificial birth control and receive the Eucharist unworthily. It's not just Teddy Kennedy and Mario Cuomo. Sanctifying Grace is diminishing here when hardly any avail themselves of It. The Lord said gird yourselves and let your lamp shine. Only a few gird themselves and remain chaste, so few lamps are on. When it appears all is lost and Satan has prevailed then will come the Triumph.
The only problem I see with breaking silly laws, is that they carry penalties.  How is it ok to take money away from your family because you decided that going the speed limit was annoying.  How is your family affected when you go to jail for providing minors with alcohol.  You have to protect your family from these unnecessary problems.  No matter how stupid the laws are.

They do, however, have stupid laws for everything.  "Yard farming" for example.  There is a law on the books prohibiting yard farming, aka gardening.  I don't know why, but it is there and there are many more ridiculous such laws.  But you do have an obligation not to cause your family undo harm, financially or mentally (from having to bail your impatient butt out of jail).

If you don't like certain silly laws, work with your legislator to change them.  Change the underage drinking law to allow wine with Sunday dinner with the family.
(08-01-2009, 01:22 PM)StabatMater Wrote: Didi and Rosarium, would you say it's a sin to go over the speed limit, if you're in a 25 zone where you can easily go 35-40 without hurting anyone, and you've got 10 furious people honking behind you?  Because if I went the speed limit on the streets where I live, that would be the case quite often.
I didn't say it was a sin to go over the speed limit.

Quote:And I'm not talking about "trespassing" in the sense that I'm going on some stranger's lawn and setting off fireworks.  There's a little basketball court my friends and I like to hang out by, with a sign that says "Private Property: No Trespassing", and a list of forbidden activities with "loitering" as one of them.  Is it a sin to hang out there, when we're not intending to do anything destructive?  The police drive by all the time and see us, and we've only been told to leave once, which we did.
Private entities do not make laws.

A part of the definition of "law" is that is enforced, otherwise it is just words on paper so to speak. Take the j-walking example given earlier. It is probably on the books somewhere, but it is never enforced by the police. It is enforced by logic. Crossing at corners is the safest way to cross the street. When it is not particular safer, crossing elsewhere is often done.

Following the law to the letter is not required in all things civil. The civil law does not define "sin". It defines civil laws. If a law is properly made and enforced, and does not violate nature or morals, willfulling violating such a law would be a sin, or at least a sin of excess pride. So while I do not think one has to confess violating traffic laws, they should follow them as best they can.

Also, for people who do not think we should follow such laws, if you accept the consequences of actions, I guess that is ok, do as you will, but I have a feeling such people will be the ones to speak out the loudest for their punishments. Providing alcohol to minors, can in some cases result in a year in prison, thousands of dollars in fines, and responsibility for whatever happens as a result of the use of alcohol. I don't know why anybody but the most foolish would risk such things for so trivial a reason.

(08-01-2009, 02:46 PM)epalinurus Wrote: I completely agree with you.  I don't know this for a fact, but I'd guess this is more related to our Protestant/Prohibition past than anything else.  Parents can decide if their kids can have water and wine with Sunday dinner, which mine did.  This kind of silly overlegislation is what breeds disrespect for laws that are actually in the province of government, laws that really matter. 

What if for some reason this became more than they thought it would be? What if this giving of alcohol somehow becomes known by the someone who decides to pursue the matter and a parent ends up with their kids in the care of the state, but some unknown foster parents while yhey are investigated and detained in prison? Would they cry about the injustice of the state or their stupidity of breaking such an easy to follow law?

Sure, it is probably quite harmless, but is one willing to accept the consequences? The state is silly and petty and often quite illogical. That is why these laws are made. Does one except them to be enforced logically or to see your point of view?
wow> i didnt know the state in the U/S can take your kid away for having him sip with you when u as his father deemed it proper. even in Canada that wouldn't happen.  lets remember something here
God has granted me and my wife my son> God did not give my son to the state. my son is mine> not the states i am his father and i will bring him up as i choose> it is a sin to support the state in destroying a family granted by the grace of God due to petty man made laws that do not affect your soul> again one must remember being a traditional catholic does not mean u are  a robot and obey the state, the coldest of cold monsters in everything it demands of you> NO! thats not what Catholics do> pretty wild how many times this gets brought up> interestingly look at the ages of those who support blindly licking the states boots in everything and those who have more of a suspicion of the state.
interesting indeed
ill j walk if i like.
ill bring my son up the way i will.
as for speeding again thats different because u can seriously hurt someone if your stupid. but there isnt something wrong with speeding in certain circumstances.
for those who will blindly lick the boots of the state go do it.
leave the rest of us and our families ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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