Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS?
#1
In a message forum you can see them debating Protestants and even Mormons, using Scripture and arguments to refute them and to try and show the validity of the Catholic faith. But as soon as they are asked by a Protestant whether they believe that only Catholics are saved or they see a non-Catholic say that The Church teaches EENS, they will at once deny this and start pussyfooting around it and making up excuses to exonerate non-Catholics from the necessity of joining The Church.

It is one thing to admit the possibility that God in a way known to himself may save a person who dies outside the faith. it is quite another to neglect proclaiming or affirming the EENS dogma for the sake of political correctness or just out of plain cowardice or lukewarmness.

Anyone else has seen the same? What use is all the effort in trying to convince them if in the end you tell them that they can be saved outside the faith?


Valz
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#2
I've thought about this before. The problem is, it's almost impossible to explain Baptism of Desire without seeming to water down EENS. And Baptism of Desire is a major factor that can't not be mentioned. Of course, this is assuming one isn't a Feeneyite, in which case there would be no need to "pusyfoot" at all.

It's probably the hardest thing to explain to non-Catholics.
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#3
(08-01-2009, 08:21 PM)NonSumDignus Wrote: I've thought about this before. The problem is, it's almost impossible to explain Baptism of Desire without seeming to water down EENS. And Baptism of Desire is a major factor that can't not be mentioned. Of course, this is assuming one isn't a Feeneyite, in which case there would be no need to "pusyfoot" at all.

It's probably the hardest thing to explain to non-Catholics.

Well, in reality those people don't even mention BOD...they just deny or water down EENS. What they do is turn invincible ignorance into some sort of privileged state that ensures the person is saved. Then they try to look around for loopholes and ways to bypass the dogma.
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#4
It's my favourite subject. Plenty of people don't like to talk about it though, and prefer to think that everybody's going to heaven. It's perfectly natural.

If Catholic Answers hadn't banned me, I'd still be shooting down the wishy-washy Catholics with Papal definitions. That's the only way to shake them out of it. I hope somebody took my place.
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#5
If salvation is possible outside the Church, then the Martyrdom of the Apostles was worth what? And the many missionaries who've given their lives for the Gospel, what for if we all will go to heaven in the end?
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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#6
(08-01-2009, 08:33 PM)Dauphin Wrote: It's my favourite subject. Plenty of people don't like to talk about it though, and prefer to think that everybody's going to heaven. It's perfectly natural.

If Catholic Answers hadn't banned me, I'd still be shooting down the wishy-washy Catholics with Papal definitions. That's the only way to shake them out of it. I hope somebody took my place.

I used to like Catholic Answers and some years ago I listened to their show and used their site a lot. But I've become dissatisfied by the overall atmosphere there.

The wishy-washy Catholics like to quote Vatican II, such as the part where it says that Muslims and Jews, for example, are included in the plan of salvation. Erroneously from this they infer that their religion saves them, instead of understanding the passage saying that just like everyone else, they are not rejected but invited into the faith.
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#7
(08-01-2009, 08:33 PM)Dauphin Wrote: It's my favourite subject. Plenty of people don't like to talk about it though, and prefer to think that everybody's going to heaven. It's perfectly natural.

If Catholic Answers hadn't banned me, I'd still be shooting down the wishy-washy Catholics with Papal definitions. That's the only way to shake them out of it. I hope somebody took my place.

You know you were awesome on CA by the way.  I kind of got tired of the people over there, a little too sensitive, I had a deacon send me a pretty nasty note because I was critical of charismatic catholics. Then everyone seemed kind of milquetoast, I was reading some of their responses to muslims desecreting the Eucharist, and it was as if they have been pistoled whip their entire lives that we shouldn't be defenders of the faith.  Sadly, that is the state of the Church, it is remarkable how some of these progressivists cling so conservatively to the last 40 years and their false ideas. 

(08-01-2009, 08:56 PM)Jacafamala Wrote: If salvation is possible outside the Church, then the Martyrdom of the Apostles was worth what? And the many missionaries who've given their lives for the Gospel, what for if we all will go to heaven in the end?

I wonder that myself.  To me, it seems the last 40 years have spit in the faces of everyone who built the Church.  From all the martyrs, who accordingly today probably need "sensitivity" training to the poor, immigrant communities of America of the early 20th century, who spent so much of the little they have to build magnificient churches only to have them either wreckovated or abandoned in favor of saucer shaped Churches.  Fortunately, it is all coming to a close, I have a feeling about that.
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#8
(08-01-2009, 07:43 PM)Valz Wrote: In a message forum you can see them debating Protestants and even Mormons, using Scripture and arguments to refute them and to try and show the validity of the Catholic faith. But as soon as they are asked by a Protestant whether they believe that only Catholics are saved or they see a non-Catholic say that The Church teaches EENS, they will at once deny this and start pussyfooting around it and making up excuses to exonerate non-Catholics from the necessity of joining The Church.

It is one thing to admit the possibility that God in a way known to himself may save a person who dies outside the faith. it is quite another to neglect proclaiming or affirming the EENS dogma for the sake of political correctness or just out of plain cowardice or lukewarmness.

Anyone else has seen the same? What use is all the effort in trying to convince them if in the end you tell them that they can be saved outside the faith?


Valz

Fr. Feeney once said that the denial of that one dogma would be the main cause of the loss of faith, and he said that some +60 years ago.

"We've come a long way baby." 

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#9
(08-01-2009, 07:43 PM)Valz Wrote: In a message forum you can see them debating Protestants and even Mormons, using Scripture and arguments to refute them and to try and show the validity of the Catholic faith. But as soon as they are asked by a Protestant whether they believe that only Catholics are saved or they see a non-Catholic say that The Church teaches EENS, they will at once deny this and start pussyfooting around it and making up excuses to exonerate non-Catholics from the necessity of joining The Church.

It is one thing to admit the possibility that God in a way known to himself may save a person who dies outside the faith. it is quite another to neglect proclaiming or affirming the EENS dogma for the sake of political correctness or just out of plain cowardice or lukewarmness.

Anyone else has seen the same? What use is all the effort in trying to convince them if in the end you tell them that they can be saved outside the faith?


Valz

The pharisee strictly believed that outside of their Law, there is no salvation. Jesus refuted them. Mormons strictly belive that only mormons will be saved, many protestants believe that they are the real Catholics and the Papist are heretics.

The belief that only Catholics are saved and everybody else go to hell is the exact same thinking.

Catholics get more resources for the salvation through the sacraments, but also the measure is significantly higher for them.

I read a rhyme in an incunabule (pre XVI century book):

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus
Esse salus ita malus

Outside the Church there is no salvation
If there is salvation it is worse.

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#10
(08-01-2009, 08:56 PM)Jacafamala Wrote: If salvation is possible outside the Church, then the Martyrdom of the Apostles was worth what? And the many missionaries who've given their lives for the Gospel, what for if we all will go to heaven in the end?

No, like I’ve said before, baptizing and preaching the Gospel is not an option for Christians. Whether nations are converted or they spit in our eye or even kill us, we must spread the Gospel because that’s the Great Commission. So, yes, the martyrdom of the apostles and missionaries is “worth it” and they already have their reward. They did not waste their time regardless of how broad or narrow our interpretation of EENS might be.

Those outside the visible structure of the Church could be given the grace of salvation. That’s God’s business. We just need to tend to ours. I think a good answer to Protestants would be that there is no salvation outside the church – and that some people might be “inside the church” though they are not enrolled members.

- Lisa
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