Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS?
It is a blessing that you are not God.

Otherwise God does not need to send anyone to the hell. He just ask the question:

Do you want a world, where you can bee better that others, or do you want a world were you will be in a lowly place?

The only thing what you wont see, that being better will be just temporary. 




(09-01-2009, 07:00 AM)ggreg Wrote: If I were God I'd send about 2 in 5 to Hell based on my experience of people.  They seem to me like they deseve it.  Some people I know are real scumbags who appear to me to be every bit as bad as the baddies in the Gospel.  They really express a contempt (below hatred) for morality or goodness or kindness and behave like wild animals.  I can't see how they would be happy in Heaven knowing what I know of them.

I think I'd find enough goodness in the rest to scrape them into Purgatory.

The bible is full of numbers.  God is clearly in love with numbers.  I find it hard to see how God will have "won" unless at the end of this experiment lasting since Adam and Eve, He has got the majority of souls into Heaven.  The alternative seems incredibly wasteful.

Remember people are born into this world and ensouled without any choice in the matter.  If the average Joe Schmo has a 99% chance of going to Hell (and I've heard SSPX priests suggest this figure in sermons at Sunday Mass), then it would seem a lot more just to offer annihilation as an option rather than only eternal torment.  I've never come first at anything significant in my life.  Why would I be able to make the top 1%?
Reply
(08-11-2009, 02:33 AM)James02 Wrote:
Quote: Actually, it says that he was sanctified. He was justified. He had the supernatural virtues of Faith and Charity before sacramental Baptism.

Where?  Justified?  That is precise language.  Please supply the quote.

"CE, on Grace" Wrote:Formal operations

Sanctifying Grace has its formal operations, which are fundamentally nothing else than the formal cause considered in its various moments. These operations are made known by Revelation; therefore to children and to the faithful can the splendour of grace best be presented by a vivid description of its operations. These are: sanctity, beauty, friendship, and sonship of God.

1. Sanctity
The sanctity of the soul, as its first formal operation, is contained in the idea itself of sanctifying grace, inasmuch as the infusion of it makes the subject holy and inaugurates the state or condition of sanctity. So far it is, as to its nature, a physical adornment of the soul; it is also a moral form of sanctification, which of itself makes baptized children just and holy in the sight of God. This first operation is thrown into relief by the fact that the "new man", created injustice and holiness (Ephesians 4:24), was preceded by the "old man" of sin, and that grace changed the sinner into a saint (Trent, Sess. VI, cap. vii: ex injusto fit justus). The two moments of actual justification, namely the remission of sin and the sanctification, are at the same time moments of habitual justification, and become the formal operations of grace. The mere infusion of the grace effects at once the remission of original and mortal sin, and inaugurates the condition or state of holiness. (See Pohle, Lehrb. der Dogm., 527 sq.)
Reply
Bait and switch.  We were talking about Augustine's teaching on Cornelius.  You seemed to claim that Augustine held that Cornelius was "justified" before baptism.  I asked for your source on this.  Where is it?  If you don't have it, then state the truth, Augustine never said Cornelius was justified before baptism.  It doesn't mean you lose, but let's stick with the facts.

Edit:  P.S. -- Faith before baptism has never been in dispute.  All adult catechumans have Faith before baptism.  That is an actual grace.
Reply
(09-01-2009, 05:50 PM)James02 Wrote: Bait and switch.  We were talking about Augustine's teaching on Cornelius.  You seemed to claim that Augustine held that Cornelius was "justified" before baptism.  I asked for your source on this.  Where is it?  If you don't have it, then state the truth, Augustine never said Cornelius was justified before baptism.  It doesn't mean you lose, but let's stick with the facts.

Edit:  P.S. -- Faith before baptism has never been in dispute.  All adult catechumans have Faith before baptism.  That is an actual grace.

Quote:...so in Cornelius the spiritual sanctification came first in the gift of the Holy Spirit, ...

"CE, on Grace" Wrote:Formal operations

Sanctifying Grace has its formal operations, which are fundamentally nothing else than the formal cause considered in its various moments. These operations are made known by Revelation; therefore to children and to the faithful can the splendour of grace best be presented by a vivid description of its operations. These are: sanctity, beauty, friendship, and sonship of God.

1. Sanctity
The sanctity of the soul, as its first formal operation, is contained in the idea itself of sanctifying grace, inasmuch as the infusion of it makes the subject holy and inaugurates the state or condition of sanctity. So far it is, as to its nature, a physical adornment of the soul; it is also a moral form of sanctification, which of itself makes baptized children just and holy in the sight of God. This first operation is thrown into relief by the fact that the "new man", created injustice and holiness (Ephesians 4:24), was preceded by the "old man" of sin, and that grace changed the sinner into a saint (Trent, Sess. VI, cap. vii: ex injusto fit justus). The two moments of actual justification, namely the remission of sin and the sanctification, are at the same time moments of habitual justification, and become the formal operations of grace. The mere infusion of the grace effects at once the remission of original and mortal sin, and inaugurates the condition or state of holiness. (See Pohle, Lehrb. der Dogm., 527 sq.)

I don't know what else to say.
Reply
Your original quote:
Quote: Actually, it says that he was sanctified. He was justified. He had the supernatural virtues of Faith and Charity before sacramental Baptism.

I can not find "it" in Book 4, chpt. 24.  I asked for you to provide me with the reference.  You can not provide it because Augustine never said Cornelius was justified before baptism.

Now look again at the Augustine quote.  He switches, saying Abraham was "justified", then going to Cornelius was "sanctified".  That is a significant difference.  Furthermore he says that the sacrament of regeneration was carried out, HOW?, by the laver of baptism.

He didn't say that "and baptism was added later".  He said "the sacrament of regeneration" was added "in the laver of baptism".  Regeneration and Justification are synonyms.  Baptism "regenerated" Cornelius, which is my point.  The scripture passage also confirms this.

Furthermore, this section by Augustine is arguing for the effectiveness of infant baptism.  So the context is against you as well.
Reply
Book 1 chpt 8 Wrote:10. Nor indeed were the prayers of the Gentile Cornelius unheard, nor did his alms lack acceptance; nay, he was found worthy that an angel should be sent to him, and that he should behold the messenger, through whom he might assuredly have learned everything that wasnecessary, without requiring that any man should come to him. But since all the good that he had in his prayers and alms could not benefit him unless he were incorporated in the Church by the bond of Christian brotherhood and peace, he was ordered to send to Peter, and through him learned Christ; and, being also baptized by his orders, he was joined by the tie of communion to the fellowship of Christians, to which before he was bound only by the likeness of good works. Acts x And indeed it would have been most fatal to despise what he did not yet possess, vaunting himself in what he had.
Book4 chpt 21 Wrote:As, then, we ought not to depreciate a man's righteousness, which begins to exist before he is joined to the Church, as the righteousness of Cornelius began to exist before he was in the body of Christian men,— which righteousness was not thought worthless, or the angel would not have said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have come up as a memorial before God;" nor did it yet suffice for his obtaining the kingdom of heaven, or he would not have been told to send to Peter, Acts 10:4-5 — so neither ought we to depreciate the sacrament of baptism,
Reply
(09-01-2009, 11:42 PM)James02 Wrote: Your original quote:
Quote: Actually, it says that he was sanctified. He was justified. He had the supernatural virtues of Faith and Charity before sacramental Baptism.

I can not find "it" in Book 4, chpt. 24.  I asked for you to provide me with the reference.  You can not provide it because Augustine never said Cornelius was justified before baptism.

Now look again at the Augustine quote.  He switches, saying Abraham was "justified", then going to Cornelius was "sanctified".  That is a significant difference.  Furthermore he says that the sacrament of regeneration was carried out, HOW?, by the laver of baptism.

He didn't say that "and baptism was added later".  He said "the sacrament of regeneration" was added "in the laver of baptism".  Regeneration and Justification are synonyms.  Baptism "regenerated" Cornelius, which is my point.  The scripture passage also confirms this.

Furthermore, this section by Augustine is arguing for the effectiveness of infant baptism.  So the context is against you as well.


These arguments are disengenous.  It's obvious from context that Augustine is equating the process of salvation between Abraham and Cornelius.  And the magisterium confirms the concept by quoting Augustine himself:

Innocent III Wrote:To your inquiry we respond thus: We assert without hesitation (on the authority of the holy Fathers Augustine and Ambrose) that the priest whom you indicated (in your letter) had died without the water of baptism, because he persevered in the faith of Holy Mother the Church and in the confession of the name of Christ, was freed from original sin and attained the joy of the heavenly fatherland. Read (brother) in the eighth book of Augustine's City of God where among other things it is written, "Baptism is ministered invisibly to one whom not contempt of religion but death excludes." Read again the book also of the blessed Ambrose concerning the death of Valentinian where he says the same thing. Therefore, to questions concerning the dead, you should hold the opinions of the learned Fathers, and in your church you should join in prayers and you should have sacrifices offered to God for the priest mentioned. (Denzinger 388)

No word games can hide this fact. 
Reply
Let's try this again.  Here's the original quote:

Quote: Actually, it says that he was sanctified. He was justified. He had the supernatural virtues of Faith and Charity before sacramental Baptism.

Book 4, Chpt. 24 says none of these things.  Furthermore, it doesn't say such a thing in the rest of the chapters and books.  L.S. is playing "word games".  At this point L.S. needs to retract his untruthful statement.

Oh, and as far as Augustine equating salvation of Abraham with the sanctification of Cornelius, I demonstrated that that was completely wrong by quoting Augustine himself.  Here's some more for you to consider:
Quote: And this is the firm tradition of the universal Church, in respect of the baptism of infants, who certainly are as yet unable "with the heart to believe unto righteousness, and with the mouth to make confession unto salvation," as the thief could do; nay, who even, by crying and moaning when the mystery is performed upon them, raise their voices in opposition to the mysterious words, and yet no Christian will say that they are baptized to no purpose.
Chapter 24.

32. And if any one seek for divine authority in this matter, though what is held by the whole Church, and that not as instituted by Councils, but as a matter of invariable custom, is rightly held to have been handed down by authority, still we can form a true conjecture of the value of the sacrament of baptism in the case of infants, from the parallel of circumcision, which was received by God's earlier people, and before receiving which Abraham was justified, as Cornelius also was enriched with the gift of the Holy Spirit before he was baptized. Yet the apostle says of Abraham himself, that "he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith," having already believed in his heart, so that "it was counted unto him for righteousness." Why, therefore, was it commanded him that he should circumcise every male child in order on the eighth day, Genesis 17:9-14 though it could not yet believe with the heart, that it should be counted unto it for righteousness, because the sacrament in itself was of great avail? And this was made manifest by the message of an angel in the case of Moses' son; for when he was carried by his mother, being yet uncircumcised, it was required, by manifest present peril, that he should be circumcised, Exodus 4:24-26 and when this was done, the danger of death was removed.
Note that Augustine yet again avoids saying Cornelius was "justified".  And this fits in with the other quotes I supplied from Augustine.  He is careful to make a distinction.

Furthermore, your quote from Pope Innocent is a non-sequitur as he certainly does not mention Cornelius.

Simple, withdraw the erroneous statement.
Reply
I've quoted the exact passage already:

Quote:As therefore in Abraham the justification of faith came first, and circumcision was added afterwards as the seal of faith; so in Cornelius  the spiritual sanctification came first in the gift of the Holy Spirit, and the sacrament of regeneration was added afterwards in the laver of baptism.

Anyone who speaks English can understand that Augustine is equating Abraham's justification with Cornelius's spiritual sanctification.  Your argument is that someone who dies in the state of "spiritual sanctification" only is not saved because they are not "justified," as if the concepts are not equivalent.  Augustine certainly did not believe that, and neither does the Magisterium.   
Reply
You want the quote to say this:
Quote: so in Cornelius  the spiritual sanctification came first in the gift of the Holy Spirit, and the sacrament of baptism was added afterwards

Instead it says this:
Quote:so in Cornelius  the spiritual sanctification came first in the gift of the Holy Spirit, and the sacrament of regeneration was added afterwards in the laver of baptism.
Regeneration, Justification, and Salvation are synonyms.  Sanctification is not a synonym for salvation.  That is pretty common knowledge.

Furthermore, I quoted Augustine where he is quite clear. 
Quote:But since all the good that he had in his prayers and alms could not benefit him unless he were incorporated in the Church by the bond of Christian brotherhood and peace, he was ordered to send to Peter, and through him learned Christ; and, being also baptized by his orders, he was joined by the tie of communion to the fellowship of Christians,
Clearly being joined by the tie of communion to the fellowship of Christians is the same as being incorporated in the Church by the bond of Christian brotherhood and peace.  And Augustine credits this to baptism, which results in the Cornelius getting "benefit" from his good works.
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)