Why do so many Catholics drop the ball when it comes to EENS?
#11
I dunno, but arguing the position of universal damnation is pretty fun.
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#12
I would say because for 40 plus years they have been fed universal salvation by the Church especialey by JPII.
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#13
(08-01-2009, 08:33 PM)Dauphin Wrote: If Catholic Answers hadn't banned me, I'd still be shooting down the wishy-washy Catholics with Papal definitions. That's the only way to shake them out of it. I hope somebody took my place.[/font]

Well that is ok because you are a Catholic, but the real embarrassing thing is to see a Protestant shooting down the wishy0washy Catholics with Papal definitions such as Unam Sanctam. I just saw this happen in another forum. The Catholic trying to find excuses for the Protestants and one of the Protestants throwing Papal definitions that contradict him.
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#14
(08-01-2009, 09:38 PM)Stubborn Wrote: Fr. Feeney once said that the denial of that one dogma would be the main cause of the loss of faith, and he said that some +60 years ago.

How right he was. As I have written elsewhere, it is once EENS had been properly explained to me that I came to understand why I could no longer be a liberal/libertarian, nor accept oecumenism and inter-religious dialogue; it is then that I perceived I ought to strive for the Social Kingship of Christ.

EENS is the keystone.
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#15
(08-02-2009, 06:29 AM)veritatem_dilexisti Wrote:
(08-01-2009, 09:38 PM)Stubborn Wrote: Fr. Feeney once said that the denial of that one dogma would be the main cause of the loss of faith, and he said that some +60 years ago.

How right he was. As I have written elsewhere, it is once EENS had been properly explained to me that I came to understand why I could no longer be a liberal/libertarian, nor accept oecumenism and inter-religious dialogue; it is then that I perceived I ought to strive for the Social Kingship of Christ.

EENS is the keystone.

Father Feeney was condemned by the Holy in 1953, and he reconciled with the Church only in 1979. Is he the keystone of the disobedience of the Church?
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#16
(08-02-2009, 08:25 AM)glgas Wrote:
(08-02-2009, 06:29 AM)veritatem_dilexisti Wrote:
(08-01-2009, 09:38 PM)Stubborn Wrote: Fr. Feeney once said that the denial of that one dogma would be the main cause of the loss of faith, and he said that some +60 years ago.

How right he was. As I have written elsewhere, it is once EENS had been properly explained to me that I came to understand why I could no longer be a liberal/libertarian, nor accept oecumenism and inter-religious dialogue; it is then that I perceived I ought to strive for the Social Kingship of Christ.

EENS is the keystone.

Father Feeney was condemned by the Holy in 1953, and he reconciled with the Church only in 1979. Is he the keystone of the disobedience of the Church?

Please do not commit the genetic fallacy; it is simply clear that, whatever his status, Fr Feeney was right when he said that, and that he has been vindicated by the facts.

Regarding his reconciliation, allow me to quote myself:

(07-24-2009, 10:56 PM)veritatem_dilexisti Wrote: Fr Feeney was reconciled in 1972, without having to recant the strict interpretation of EENS, and, as a profession of faith (since one may choose from the creeds of the Church), he recited the Athanasian Creed: "Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith; which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. … He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. … This is the Catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved."

His memorial Mass was celebrated by Bp Flanagan in the Cathedral of St Paul, Worcester.

Besides, the exclusivist interpretation of EENS and an understanding of its importance were conveyed to me by a French SSPX brother without reference to Fr Feeney, who is basically unheard of in France.
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#17
It's true....some people form our chapel briefly had a little Catholic "center" with a sign in the window saying "No Salvation Outside the Church." It was on the news alot and one of my grandmother's Cuban friends said that's what he was brought up with. He never heard of Fr. Feeney either. It seems to be a real American "thing" with denying this doctrine.
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#18
(08-02-2009, 08:25 AM)glgas Wrote: Father Feeney was condemned by the Holy in 1953, and he reconciled with the Church only in 1979. Is he the keystone of the disobedience of the Church?

Sorry, that was the smear job but is completely false.

He was a family friend for about the last 10 years of his life and I know better. 
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#19
(08-01-2009, 07:43 PM)Valz Wrote: In a message forum you can see them debating Protestants and even Mormons, using Scripture and arguments to refute them and to try and show the validity of the Catholic faith. But as soon as they are asked by a Protestant whether they believe that only Catholics are saved or they see a non-Catholic say that The Church teaches EENS, they will at once deny this and start pussyfooting around it and making up excuses to exonerate non-Catholics from the necessity of joining The Church.

It is one thing to admit the possibility that God in a way known to himself may save a person who dies outside the faith. it is quite another to neglect proclaiming or affirming the EENS dogma for the sake of political correctness or just out of plain cowardice or lukewarmness.

Anyone else has seen the same? What use is all the effort in trying to convince them if in the end you tell them that they can be saved outside the faith?


Valz

Because it is a difficult subject to discuss without entering into personal opinions. On one side, you have the Feeneyites who believe if you are not in full communion with the Pope, you're going to Hell. On the other side, you have those who state that as long as the person is seeking Truth, then that is what counts (this was the argument put forth by Jimmy Akin). Even taking into account some of the harsh-sounding statements by earlier (i.e. Middle Ages/Pre-Protestant Reformation) Popes about no hope of Salvation, regardless of works, if you are not part of the Catholic Church, one then has to ask: what does it mean to be part of the Catholic Church?

Obviously, there are those who are formal members of the Church: Baptized, Confirmed and in full-communion with the Pope. What about Protestants who are validly Baptized? Are they not imperfectly connected to the Catholic Church? Then there is the "Baptism of Desire" issue. Fr. Feeney took a strong stand of rejecting that idea, but that is his opinion, not Catholic doctrine and the doctrine seems fairly vague to being with. Then "invincible ignorance" enters into play. Obviously, most people probably know the Catholic Church exists, but do they know it is the True Church founded by Christ? What does it mean to "know" in this case? Is it just they need to have heard someone tell them that the CC is the True Church or do they actually, at some level, have been convinced of this fact, yet they obstinately refuse or they are so stubbornly Anti-Catholic that their hatred for Catholicism supersedes their personal search for Truth.

Frankly, EENS is not an easy topic because only God knows who is truly a part of His Church. We can know who is formally Catholic (Baptized, Confirmed, etc.), but only God knows the state of a man's soul and whether they are somehow connected to His Church even if that connection is invisible to us. Thus, perhaps the best summarization to make is:

1) The Catholic Church is the True Church founded by Christ
2) Anyone outside the Church cannot be Saved, but in the end, only God knows who is part of His Church
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#20
Yes, it is true that God knows who is in the Church, but at the same time we know what one needs to be in the Church.

Fr. Feeney never made personal judgments against individuals. If he knew of a Protestant who died, he always said a mass for them. Why? Because they have valid baptism and only God knows if that man converted in his heart to God while others weren't watching.

We musn't judge individuals but that doesn't mean we disregard the Church when she infallibly declares that there is only one Church in which we can be saved and which can be entered only through baptism of water.
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