On Suicide thoughts
#11
(08-07-2009, 08:46 AM)PaxVobiscum Wrote: You dislike the pure chemical imbalance idea?   And that proves what?  Do you dislike the "pure chemical imbalance idea" for diabetes, hypothyroidism and hyperthyroidism, Cushing's disease, Addison's disease, etc.?   
I dislike it because it it ignores reality. Mental problems can be a result of genetic dispositions, reactions to stress, reactions to specific problems, reactions to other biological factors, signs of a bigger problem, etc. For those diseases you mentioned, they are defined. Depression however is not so clearly defined. If someone is depressed say because of a death of a parent, is it the same as those disorders you mentioned? Is the answer just correcting the chemical imbalance? If a person is depressed because a dietary defect because of anorexia, is the answer drugs or treating the dietary problem?

Quote:What if a chemical imbalance IS the true cause of the symptoms?  Would you advise people to stop taking their insulin or thyroid medication and look for "the true cause of the symptoms" when the evidence shows that chemical imbalance is the true cause of the symptoms?  Do you seriously think diabetics can overcome their need for insulin by "their will and thoughts"?
Well, that is exactly the point. With those problems, the cause and effects are clearly known. For mental problems, it is mostly guess work and cute diagrams. People with diabetes or thyroid problems won't get different answers from different doctors. When it comes to psychiatry, you are lucky if two doctors recommend the same type of drug, let alone the same one.

You also missed the point about will and thoughts. I was pointing out that the cause of depression can be very diverse. Diabetes is not so diverse. My statement had nothing to do with the cure, but the cause. The cause of diabetes (well, I'm not expert, but I think it is correct) is a biological problem, and as such is treated as one. Depression on the other hand can be caused by a great variety of factors, and it is important to find out the reason and ultimately treat that (not excluding the use of drugs, but the lack of attention to the full picture).

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Giving morphine without treating a crushed limb would indeed end badly for the patient and no competent physician would consider it.   But trying to talk people out of depression without giving them anti-depressants can also end badly, in suicide.   Did you know that a person whose bipolar disorder is improperly treated has a 20% risk of suicide?  That's a significant risk factor.   No competent physician tries to treat serious mental illness without correcting the patient's chemical imbalance.
I never say drugs should never be used, only we should be careful to find the true problem and treat that. Like the crushed limb model, there is nothing wrong and it is probably very desirable to treat the pain while treating the cause.

Quote:Go to med school, do a residency in psychiatry and practice for ten years, then get back to us.  Your hat will fit better by then.
I think you misunderstood my post. I never said drugs were wrong or not the answer or even that they should be avoided. I merely said it is important to find the cause of a problem while treating it.

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#12
Let me preface by saying that I graduated with a degree in Cognitive Psychology focusing on learning and memory.  I have studied this topic and disorders.

I just want to clarify something.

For almost every disorder, there is going to be either a psychologist's cure or a psychiatrist's cure or both.  Depending on the cause of the illness, there will be different cures for different people.

Most psychologists will have a good partner/friend who is a psychiatrist, and most psychiatrists will have a good partner/friend who is a psychologist.  This is because these people will know whether or not they can help the person with their specific trade skills.  Treating a mental illness can be done with just meds, just talking, or both.  And it's different per person per patient.

We have not begun to come close to decoding the human brain, all we know mostly is that it's a black box with some stuff moving around on the outside.  We do some things to it, and some results occur, thats about it.  Theories.

Being verbally condescending to people does not help your argument.  So please, since I do not want this thread closed, let's keep it to more constructive and peaceful talk. :-)
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#13

In fact, Rosarium, people with thyroid diseases and other problems that you agree are chemically caused do get different answers from different doctors.  Life is not as simple as you make it out to be. 
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#14
(08-07-2009, 05:42 PM)PaxVobiscum Wrote: In fact, Rosarium, people with thyroid diseases and other problems that you agree are chemically caused do get different answers from different doctors.   

Radically different answers?

Quote:Life is not as simple as you make it out to be.   
I'm talking about one subject, not life.

I don't know what the problem is. I was just pointing out the importance of finding the cause of a problem and ultimately treating that. I didn't say it was easy or mistakes couldn't be made.
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#15
I would agree with the positions that there are a lot different factors (as has been mentioned: genetics, physiology, environment, social conditioning, etc.) that influence one's demeanour or outlook, and Satan will certainly take advantage of any weak links one may have - all the more reason to keep one's self armored with grace, but, of course, to also seek medical care and/or counseling when appropriate.

As one poster mentioned, the Church has always had a strict line on suicide, and in times past a victim of suicide was generally denied the Requiem Mass (at least for the funeral, I would suppose Masses were allowed for their soul) and could not be buried in consecrated ground.  I do know of two cases though, pre VII, where the pastor determined that a funeral Mass could be held, and today the mainstream Church's position is more pastoral, but Her teaching on the gravity of suicide is unchanged.

One interesting observation I've had:  back when I was in my 20's, in the 1970's, when the topic of suicide would come up in a group discussion, many people who had been raised protestant or perhaps as nothing,  had, at some point, at least thought about suicide.  It seemed that those who had been raised Catholic, even if they were no longer active in the Church, had never considered suicide.
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#16
(08-07-2009, 06:15 PM)moneil Wrote: One interesting observation I've had:  back when I was in my 20's, in the 1970's, when the topic of suicide would come up in a group discussion, many people who had been raised protestant or perhaps as nothing,  had, at some point, at least thought about suicide.  It seemed that those who had been raised Catholic, even if they were no longer active in the Church, had never considered suicide.
It comes up in those active in the Church as much as any other temptation.
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