Article on Ignorant Native
#31

Quote:Ok, I'll present a few scenerios, and you tell me if they are possible considering Church teachings. Ok?
Ummm...ok

Quote:* The unbaptised go to Hell
Amen, Amen, I say to you: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven Jesus

If anyone says Baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation, let him be anathema” (De Baptismo , Canon V).


Quote:* The unbaptised are able to obtain the grace necessary through some other means, and can go to Heaven
Grace can precede baptism but baptism is still necessary for salvation.

This translation[to justification] however cannot, since the promulgation of the Gospel, be effected except through the laver of regeneration or its desire, as it is written: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.Session 6, Chapter IV, Decree Concerning Justification (Jan. 13, 1547)


Quote:* The unbaptised go to what is termed Limbo of the Infants
Some may...depends I guess...

“The doctrine which rejects as a Pelagian fable that place of the lower regions (which the faithful generally designate by the name Limbo of the Children) in which the souls of those departing with the sole guilt of original sin are punished with the punishment of the condemned, exclusive of fire, just as if by this very fact, that those who remove the punishment of fire introduced that middle place and state, free of guilt and punishment between the kingdom of God and eternal damnation, such as that about which the Pelagians idly talk: [Condemned as] false, rash, injurious to Catholic schools Pope Pius VI(Denz. 1526).”


Ecumenical Council of Florence declared: “The souls of those who die in actual mortal sin, or [b]only in Original Sin, immediately descend into Hell” [/b] (Denz. 693).


Quote:* The unbaptised are, before leaving this world, are presented a choice by an angel to be baptised which they can accept or reject
* The unbaptised who do not have the will to make choices are automatically baptised by an angel (probably their guardian angel)


Pope St. Innocent I, in 417, wrote to the Synod of Milevis, that: “The idea that infants can be granted the rewards of eternal life even without the grace of baptism is utterly foolish” (DS 219).


Pope St. Innocent I, in 417, wrote to the Synod of Milevis, that: “The idea that infants can be granted the rewards of eternal life even without the grace of baptism is utterly foolish” (DS 219).
The Council of Florence (the Bull Cantate Domino of February 4, 1442): “Regarding children, indeed, because of danger of death, which can often take place, since no help can be brought to them by another remedy than through the sacrament of baptism, through which they are snatched from the domination of the devil and adopted among the sons of God, [the sacrosanct Roman Church] advises that holy baptism ought not to be deferred for forty or eighty days, . . . but it should be conferred as soon as it can be done conveniently” (DS 1349).


Ecumenical Council of Vienne defined that: “All the faithful must confess only[b] one Baptism which regenerates all the baptized, just as there is one God and one faith. We believe that this Sacrament, celebrated in water and in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, is necessary for children and grown-up people alike for salvation[/b]” (Denzinger 482)





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#32
(08-10-2009, 10:01 AM)didishroom Wrote:
Quote:* The unbaptised go to Hell
Amen, Amen, I say to you: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven Jesus

If anyone says Baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation, let him be anathema” (De Baptismo , Canon V).
So then, one can say, that an unbaptised infant goes to the fires of hell forever. Correct?

Quote:
Quote:* The unbaptised are, before leaving this world, are presented a choice by an angel to be baptised which they can accept or reject
* The unbaptised who do not have the will to make choices are automatically baptised by an angel (probably their guardian angel)


Pope St. Innocent I, in 417, wrote to the Synod of Milevis, that: “The idea that infants can be granted the rewards of eternal life even without the grace of baptism is utterly foolish” (DS 219).


Pope St. Innocent I, in 417, wrote to the Synod of Milevis, that: “The idea that infants can be granted the rewards of eternal life even without the grace of baptism is utterly foolish” (DS 219).
The Council of Florence (the Bull Cantate Domino of February 4, 1442): “Regarding children, indeed, because of danger of death, which can often take place, since no help can be brought to them by another remedy than through the sacrament of baptism, through which they are snatched from the domination of the devil and adopted among the sons of God, [the sacrosanct Roman Church] advises that holy baptism ought not to be deferred for forty or eighty days, . . . but it should be conferred as soon as it can be done conveniently” (DS 1349).


Ecumenical Council of Vienne defined that: “All the faithful must confess only[b] one Baptism which regenerates all the baptized, just as there is one God and one faith. We believe that this Sacrament, celebrated in water and in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, is necessary for children and grown-up people alike for salvation[/b]” (Denzinger 482)

None of those statements say anything which answer those scenerios. Remember, I'm saying that the person is baptised with water using the correct formula. It seems that there is no statement which says that it must be a living human. A saint, an angel or perhaps even God or the souls in purgatory  can baptise. Correct?

So, since we do know that baptism is necessary, and that anything is possible with God, we really can't know what the fate of the souls of those who are unable to be baptised by mortal humans. We can know the fate of the unbaptised, but we cannot know for sure who is unbaptised.

I'm not saying this for feel good sentimentality, but because it is how I see it. The fate of others we cannot normally know.
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#33
Well there was a statement from one of the Councils that said one must be incorporated into the Church before death...I just can't find it at the moment.

I believe an angel could theoretically baptize. But your original point was we don't know what happens to those that aren't baptized which is false. We don't know what happens to individuals because we can't know for certain whether they've been baptized or not.

If an angel will automatically baptize certain infants the Church would not have bothered to demand infant baptism nor declare that they would be barred from heaven.
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#34
(08-10-2009, 11:07 AM)didishroom Wrote: I believe an angel could theoretically baptize. But your original point was we don't know what happens to those that aren't baptized which is false. We don't know what happens to individuals because we can't know for certain whether they've been baptized or not.
Yes, that is what I mean.

Quote:If an angel will automatically baptize certain infants the Church would not have bothered to demand infant baptism nor declare that they would be barred from heaven.

Actually, the Church puts the burden on people. Apparently, we have a duty to baptise. Perhaps the Church tells us we have to because it is our duty, rather than necessary for the child? The Church also tells us what is good for ourselves, not others (ie, stealing from someone hurts out soul, not the victims). Why would baptism by any different?

From the way it is written, those who do not baptise when they should are guilty of sin. This says nothing about what happens to the infant. Perhaps it is more like an infant crawling to a cliff's edge with an adult standing by and doing nothing. The child gets to the ledge and goes over, but is caught by the guardian angel, who looks over to the adult and says "Why did you do nothing?" and then takes the infant to safety, away from the adult.
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#35
But the Church isn't simply commanding baptism with no explanation. She makes it so importanty for us to baptize because it IS ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation. Please, re read the statements carefully.
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#36
(08-10-2009, 11:07 AM)didishroom Wrote: Well there was a statement from one of the Councils that said one must be incorporated into the Church before death...I just can't find it at the moment.
"Death" is very vague :) The angels formed manna in the desert to feed the Chosen People; they can surely find water to baptise a human. (Sweat, moisture in the air, etc).

Quote:I believe an angel could theoretically baptize. But your original point was we don't know what happens to those that aren't baptized which is false. We don't know what happens to individuals because we can't know for certain whether they've been baptized or not.
Yes, that is what I meant.

Quote:If an angel will automatically baptize certain infants the Church would not have bothered to demand infant baptism nor declare that they would be barred from heaven.
I already addressed that.
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