Nostra Aetate and Islam
#51
(08-19-2009, 11:41 AM)Credo Wrote:
Psalm26 Wrote:[size=10pt]No! I do not worship the same God as Muslims[/size].

Nostra Aetate was addressing those individuals who cry out to the Creator of the Universe, to the same God who appeared to Prophet Abraham, and who do so in honesty of heart, but for whatever accidents of history find themself in an Islamic society. Being a part of said society, it would be natural to be a Mohammedan.

Psalm26, I will address the other points you made, some good, others bad, as well as some other comments from fellow posters, later this evening when I have some more time.


The same God that appeared to Abraham was not the same as he who appeared to any other prophet outside of Holy Scripture.

Looking forward to your insight Credo.


Pax


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#52
true>
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#53
Psalm26 Wrote:'Why should I believe that someone who lived 600 years after the event and hundreds of miles away from where it happened had the authentic record rather than those who were eye witnesses?'

In your experience, Pslam26, have you found Muslims suspicious of the Gospels themselves? Concerning the Gospels, off the top of my head, the only major discrepancy between the Bible and the Koran regarding the life of Christ concerns the crucifixion of Christ, and his subsequent Resurrection.
 
My experience with Muslim regarding their hesitation over reliability Bible centers less on the accuracy of the Gospels, but rather on S. Paul. Mohammedans consider him a rabble-rouser who showed up after the fact and warped the person of Christ, calling him divine whereas before Christ was simply considered a prophet.

Quote: Of course Muslims deny that there was any human influence on the writing of the Koran

Did Mohammed write the Koran? I thought Caliph Uthman was the one who wrote the Koran? In the time of Mohammedan the work was only preserved in the minds of the first Muslims, and on clay jars and scraps of leather here and there.

Quote: For example in Sura 19.28-29 Mary the mother of Jesus is designated as 'sister of Aaron' and in Sura 66.12 as 'daughter of Imran'. Imran is an Arabic form of the Hebrew Amram, who was the father of 'Aaron, Moses and Miriam' (Numbers 26.59). The title sister of Aaron is given to Miriam in Exodus 15.20. Therefore not only was the mother of Jesus a virgin, she was also about 1500 years old!


Couldn’t the title “Sister of Aaron” be understood in the same way “Son of David” is? In other words, just as Christ wasn’t the actual biological son of King David, but rather his descendant, could a “Sister of Aaron” be taken in the same way?

Quote: The fact is that the truth remains the truth irrespective of how many people believe it.
This is a weak way to end the article. While ontologically true, it gives the immediate impression of, “I’m right, you’re wrong. Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah.”

Quote:The same God that appeared to Abraham was not the same as he who appeared to any other prophet outside of Holy Scripture.

My original comment you reference had nothing to do with the validity of Mohammed’s claims of prophethood.

Let me rephrase myself: consider a phone call. If an individual soul dials on his prayer line, “Creator of the Universe, God of Abraham,” he will be routed to the selfsame Entity regardless of whatever cultural baggage he may carry.* Intention is everything. If someone knows only an Islam through no fault of their own, why would God withhold himself from such a truth-seeking soul?


* For our purposes this is an individual born into an Islamic society, obviously through no fault of his own.
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#54
mattman1970 Wrote:what actually can we learn from those who don't have the fullness of the truth?

That's a really good question.

Speaking personally, I never understood the linked between the body and soul until I took a Tai Chi class. This is really silly since Catholicism has a zillion facets which back our belief in the relationship between matter and spirit, yet this was the case. Some of the most profound considerations on evil, the reality of the soul and the omnipresence of God I have heard on Alex Jones' radio show, and to a lesser extent, Michael Savage's. This too is odd since I daily crack open the Divine Office, wherein the lessons are taken from the cream of the spiritual masters. However, this is the case. Some of the deeper insights I've learned about conversion, intention and death have been picked up from Islamic Nasheeds. This too is odd insofar as Catholicism has a musical repertoire which can't be matched, yet such is the reality.

Ultimately, there are two reasons why I think non-Catholic sources can be of use in the spiritual and intellectual life:

1) When an explicitly Christian exegete talks, they will likely do so to a Christian audience. As such, the Christian speaker assumes a lot on the part of the listener. These points are not reiterated. Yet these assumed elements can be quite refreshing to reacquaint oneself with from time to time. For instance, I have never heard a Catholic sermon or song on Monotheism, a basic belief of the religion, yet Dawud Wharnsby's Nasheed The Story Of Ibrahim speaks to me.

2) I believe hearing a truth from an outside source has a psychologically supportive effect. For example, one can grow up their whole life hearing about the necessity to do a job well done. It will not be until the day one starts their first job that this reality might make itself known. Likewise, one can go Sunday after Sunday, Mass after Mass, and consider what a confession of Christ's divinity means. But it may not be until one sees some Evangelical street preacher shouted down on the sidewalk by an infidel that one understands how radical such a confession really is.

If I've made a mess in trying to expline myself, please ask for any clarification on these points.
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#55
interesting credo what style of tai chi did u study? are still studying?
im a practitioner of chen the original form.
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#56
(08-19-2009, 07:29 PM)Psalm26 Wrote: Humility

The Catholic Faith already teaches humility.  So once again, what can the Catholic Faith, which is the fullness of truth, learn from those religions who don't have the fullness of truth?  Now, sure, we may gain a deeper insight to a Catholic truth from someone who is not a Catholic, but the fact remains that the truth that we gain insight about is still already a part of the Catholic Faith.  There is no new truth or teaching that the Catholic Faith can acquire from being taught by a non-Catholic religion.

With His love,
Matt
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