The Present Position of Cardinal Newman
#21
(08-18-2009, 04:28 AM)Benno Wrote: or maybe you could just read better stuff...

I deleted the post.

The Point is a very good read, nonetheless.
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#22
Quote:No salvation outside the Catholic Church.
"No salvation": it will leave you in the lurch.
You've got to take the whole of it,
You can't belong to the soul of it.
No salvation outside the Catholic Church.

No salvation outside the Catholic Church.
No salvation outside the Catholic Church.
Without that personal submission to the Pope
You'll lose your charity, faith and hope.
No salvation outside the Catholic Church.

No salvation outside the Catholic Church.
No salvation outside the Catholic Church.
That crazy thing called Baptism of Desire
Will lead you into everlasting fire.
No salvation outside the Catholic,
The Roman Catholic,
Outside the Catholic Church.

This is really a hymn, or are they parodying themselves?
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#23
(08-18-2009, 04:40 AM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote:
Quote:No salvation outside the Catholic Church.
"No salvation": it will leave you in the lurch.
You've got to take the whole of it,
You can't belong to the soul of it.
No salvation outside the Catholic Church.

No salvation outside the Catholic Church.
No salvation outside the Catholic Church.
Without that personal submission to the Pope
You'll lose your charity, faith and hope.
No salvation outside the Catholic Church.

No salvation outside the Catholic Church.
No salvation outside the Catholic Church.
That crazy thing called Baptism of Desire
Will lead you into everlasting fire.
No salvation outside the Catholic,
The Roman Catholic,
Outside the Catholic Church.

This is really a hymn, or are they parodying themselves?

It's not a hymn. It's a "recreational/motivational" song sung by the children, set to the tune from Barny Google:

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#24
(08-17-2009, 10:06 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote: Cardinal Newman is the man.

Amen brother!!  ;D
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#25
Fr. Feeney Wrote:The more you read Newman, the less you remember what he says. He is an author whom it is impossible to quote. What you recall, after you have finished reading him, is never what the clarity of his style was revealing, but some small, unwarranted queerness that it was almost concealing. You remember that Newman said that a chandelier “depends” from a ceiling; and if you look up “depends” in the dictionary, you will find that “hangs from” is exactly what it means. You remember that Newman felt entitled to mispronounce deliberately one English word to show his proprietorship over the language. He pronounced “soldier” as sol—dee—err.

Does Fr. Feeney have a problem with Cardinal Newman's love of prose?  Some would lament the decline of the English vocabulary, and would find Cardinal Newman's command of the language to be worthy of most praise.

Quote:You remember that Newman was perpetually fussing about Reverend E. B. Pusey, who seems, in some refined way, to have gotten under his skin.

Yeah, silly Cardinal Newman for getting so bent out of shape about some trivial topic and having to write a letter to a Rev. Pusey.  What that topic again?  Oh yes...the honor do to the Blessed Virgin...Newman should have kept his mouth shut.

Quote:You remember Newman was shocked that Catholics were giving Protestants the grounds for declaring that “the honor of Our Lady is dearer to Catholics than the conversion of England,” as though anything else could be the childlike truth.

If someone is saying they'd rather not have country X converted, then I'd say they deserve a rebuke.  Christ's first command was to convert the whole world, and thus we should desire that goal be met above all else.

Quote:You remember that Newman particularly disliked the Marian writings of St. Alfonso Liguori, a Doctor of the Universal Church, and said of these writings, “They are suitable for Italy, but they are not suitable for England.”

This sentence shows either Fr. Feeney's ignorance or intellectual dishonesty.  This quote from Newman does not deal with the dogmatic teachings of St. Alphonsus (Fr. Feeney seems to be implying that Newman denies some moral teachings of the Church), but is related to excessive Marian devotion.  The full quote:

Apologia pro Vita Sua Wrote:Now it must be observed that the writings of St. Alfonso, as I knew them by the extracts commonly made from them, prejudiced me as much against the Roman Church as any thing else, on account of what was called their " Mariolatry "; but there was nothing of the kind in this book. -1 wrote to ask Dr. Russell whether any thing had been left out in the translation; he answered that there certainly was an ommission of one passage about the Blessed Virgin. This ommission, in the case of a book intended for Catholics, at least showed that such passages as are found in the works of Italian Authors were not acceptable to every part of the Catholic world. Such devotional manifestations in honour of our Lady had been my great crux as regards Catholicism; I say frankly, I do not fully enter into them now; I trust I do not love her the less, because I cannot enter into them. They may be fully explained and defended; but sentiment and taste do not run with logic: they are suitable for Italy, but they are not suitable for England.

Newman received a book from Dr. Russell about Mary (one that was ultimately influential in his conversion).  His preconceptions about Catholic 'Mariolatry' were unfounded.  However, he did have concerns about when devotion became excessive.  To my understanding, the passage Newman refers to being omitted, does not touch on any Marian doctrine (for Newman accepted all the Catholic beliefs about Mary), nor does it directly concern Catholic practices like the Rosary (Newman prayed the Rosary daily in his last years when he could no longer pray the Breviary due to blindness).  However, I think he's criticizing St. Alfonso's expressions of piety and zeal which can sometimes exceed the defined doctrine.  Such devotional expressions may be fine for Italy (where virtually everyone is Catholic), however, if the expression would make its way to England (where the majority is Protestant), then it could be easily misinterpreted and ultimately do more harm for authentic ecumenism than good.

In addition, Newman's underlying principle (i.e. Rome does not require the Church to believe all devotions surrounding a doctrine) is sound and has precedent.  It is pious belief in the Western Church that Purgatory cleanses by 'Purgatorial fire'.  Its quite an established belief, and is in our art and catechisms.  Ho
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#26
The Awesomeness of Persons:

1. Jesus
2. Mary
3. Joseph
4. Cardinal Newman
5. Quis
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#27
(08-21-2009, 04:39 PM)anthony Wrote: The Awesomeness of Persons:

1. Jesus
2. Mary
3. Joseph
4. Cardinal Newman
5. Quis

Mikey likes this.  :thumb:. 
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#28
BTW, MMC, that was a very helpful response.

Newman is a writer complex (I'm thinking of the Grammar), and yet so approachable when it comes to his sermons.

The writer of this article though is disturbing.
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