"a Catholic politician could in good conscience vote in favor of abortion"
#21
(08-29-2009, 07:28 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: How do you know they head for safe eternal life?  Maybe they end up in limbo forever, never having had a chance for the remission of original sin.


The mother who kills her unborn child has a really good chance of going to hell, and I the politician that supports that is supporting the unjust killing of an innocent.

I don't see why every time abortion is mentioned you bring up these other things like it's "either / or".  That's a false dichotomy.  Just because abortion is spoken out on doesn't mean these other issues are ignored.  However, abortion has an urgency that these others do not.  Millions of unjust are killed before they even have a chance every year.  Children growing up in a Godless environment at least have a chance at baptism.

You're an odd one...

1./ The limbo is better place than the hell.

2. I never said or thought that the abortion is not mortal sin, or not evel for the whole of the society.

My only problem is that the abortion is the singled out, only non negotiable evil, the only evil which worth to mention political decision (e.g. against the present health care reform). For the interest of the full Christian life of the society (which is mustard for political decisions) the abortion is no greather harm the either the Godless public life, the destruction of the Christian nation;  or the destruction of the Christian family, or even the destruction of the environment. The world as a whole, the nation as a whole or the family as a whole are greather values than the mortal life of a samll percentage of single individuals. Only Jews and atheist believe that the mortal life is the highest value.

If anyone, who set up an antiabortion message, without setting up two other messages, one against the exclusion of God from the schools and public life, an other against the destruction of the family by the no fault divorce and may be a third one against the destruction of the environment, is wrong. I do not suppose the dolum malum, but the ignorance is fault by omission, wrong. The solid order of the values is: God - Church - World - nations - families - individual

Yes I am odd. But one of the basic principle what I learned from Desrcates, Kant and Hegel that not only the sensual perception, but also the conform view of a group could be wrong. Also spending over thirty years of my conscious years under a communist dictature, allowed me to understand that the evil operates in both side, in one side by negation, in other one by absolutization, as it happens here in the abuse of pro life issue as pro republican political issue.

laszlo
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#22
Quote:The recent teaching of the Church is that there is a strong possibility that the unbaptized infants are save through the virtue of Christ reconciliation of the world with God.

That's not Church teaching, that's heterodox modernist theologian teaching.   Limbo is a theological certainty.  Infant's by definition don't have the faculties necessary to cooperate with grace ex opere operantis.  If nobody baptizes them with water or martyrs them, they are excluded from the Beatific Vision, which is completely just, since they don't have the ability to merit anything by themselves.  Besides, children's limbo is a nice place to be. 
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#23
Interesting point, except the odd jab at Vatican II. All these fellows seem to have been born LONG before VII. They were born and bred and raised in Trad Catholic Time. VII is not to blame for everything. It has its own problems, but the people seem to have been in worse shape than the document itself is.
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#24
(08-30-2009, 07:45 PM)maldon Wrote: Interesting point, except the odd jab at Vatican II. All these fellows seem to have been born LONG before VII. They were born and bred and raised in Trad Catholic Time. VII is not to blame for everything. It has its own problems, but the people seem to have been in worse shape than the document itself is.

These are the manifest spiritual fruits of the Second Vatican Council and the New Mass.  No one would have gotten away with this thinking prior to V2.  Look how horribly Ted Kennedy was perverted:

Quote:While the deep concern of a woman bearing an unwanted child merits consideration and sympathy, it is my personal feeling that the legalization of abortion on demand is not in accordance with the value which our civilization places on human life. Wanted or unwanted, I believe that human life, even at its earliest stages, has certain rights which must be recognized -- the right to be born, the right to love, the right to grow old.

I share the confidence of those who feel that America is working to care for its unwanted as well as wanted children, protecting particularly those who cannot protect themselves. I also share the opinions of those who do not accept abortion as a response to our society's problems -- an inadequate welfare system, unsatisfactory job training programs, and insufficient financial support for all its citizens.

When history looks back to this era it should recognize this generation as one which cared about human beings enough to halt the practice of war, to provide a decent living for every family and to fulfill its responsibility to its children from the very moment of conception.  -Ted Kennedy, letter to a constituent, August 3, 1971


From that to a 100% pro-choice rating from NARAL. 

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#25
I missed the part where he said that the New Mass and Vatican II had changed his mind. Where is that part? Or the part where he says that he now goes to mass more frequently and is more strongly influenced by the terrific new mass.

Nope. All you have here, Peter, is an example of the downward spiral of all of us if we do not take our faith seriously, whether we go to TLMs or not.

We cannot pretend that TLMs are some bullet-proof shield against evil. As I said earlier, these men breathed the TLM in their formative years.
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#26
PeterII Wrote:An example of the wonderful fruits following Vatican II.
 
This has to do with the Second Vatican Council how?

Quote:How modernist theologians allow you to get away with absolutely anything

Yes, let the Church play into the media's game of showing her as some overbearing institution. These pro-abortion folk don't need to be raked over the coals via public condemnations any more than drag queens need to be called out on their gender. Everyone interested in Catholic social teaching, and everyone looking for a prostitute, knows both Modernists and drag queens are phonies at what they do. Any Christian worth their salt knows these theologians are wrong. Besides simple biblical extrapolation, abortion is explicitly condemned in the Didache.
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#27
Catholics are ultimately sustained by grace.  An educated Catholic does not lose his Faith in a vacuum.  It is a direct result of one's thinking and spiritual practices.  Vatican II helped skew the thinking, and the New Mass severely hindered the graces.  Ted Kennedy is the perfect case study of the effect the Springtime had on postconciliar Catholic politicians.   
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#28
(08-29-2009, 10:06 PM)alaric Wrote: So a scumbag abortionist can butcher 30,000 unborn babies in his lifetime but have a "death-bed" conversion, squeak into purgatory temporarily and eventually enter paradise and dwell in God's presence eternally while 30,000 souls are cut-off from heaven and the Lord forever?

I don't like the sound of that at all. Show me where in Church doctrine where it says that.

Not quite that easy.  A repentant abortionist, who "managed" to "squeak" a pardon prayer will probably make it to Purgatory but Divine Justice will mete out the proper punishment.  For as long as abortion continues and this soul has been a practitioner and a supporter of abortion and for as long as abortion continues until it is completely eradicated, this poor soul remains in his punishment and will not gain paradise "just because he repented."  Too many mortal sins (30,000?) have to be atoned and paid for.  How long will it take?

This goes for Ted Kennedy and ilk who we seem to know in the external forum was not unrepentant and did not recant his abortion stance.  He might have received pardon, God can only read the heart, but too many babies will still die because of the laws he has passed.  He must answer for every baby that dies that was due to his cause.  God is just and merciful.
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#29
(08-29-2009, 09:05 PM)alaric Wrote:
(08-29-2009, 08:53 PM)James02 Wrote:
Quote: Aborted children had for safe eternal life,

Abortion as a sacrament.  Would even Fr. Feeney have predicted that?

Yes these children will be safe, and it will be eternal.  Eternally without God in Limbo.  A horrible crime.
I don't buy that for a second.

You actually believe a most holy righteous God would penalize a soul in "limbo" for eternity because some monster in a "family planning center" snuffed him/her  out before they even had a chance to win/lose their salvation?

That would be not only be a total travesty of justice but entirely nonsensical as well.

To be fair, God penalized the entire human race because of the sin of the first two thousands of years ago.  He penalises children born to AIDS suffers and drud-addicts.  The biggest monster in the family planning clinic is often the child's mother who should have a nutural desire to protect her offspring.

Limbo to me seems a sensible solution for an unbaptised soul who has done nothing to merit Heaven nor Hell
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#30
(08-29-2009, 10:06 PM)alaric Wrote: So a scumbag abortionist can butcher 30,000 unborn babies in his lifetime but have a "death-bed" conversion, squeak into purgatory temporarily and eventually enter paradise and dwell in God's presence eternally while 30,000 souls are cut-off from heaven and the Lord forever?

I don't like the sound of that at all. Show me where in Church doctrine where it says that.

http://drbo.org/chapter/47020.htm
Mt 20:1-16

1 The kingdom of heaven is like to an householder, who went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. 2 And having agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And going out about the third hour, he saw others standing in the market place idle. 4 And he said to them: Go you also into my vineyard, and I will give you what shall be just. 5 And they went their way. And again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did in like manner.

6 But about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing, and he saith to them: Why stand you here all the day idle? 7 They say to him: Because no man hath hired us. He saith to them: Go you also into my vineyard. 8 And when evening was come, the lord of the vineyard saith to his steward: Call the labourers and pay them their hire, beginning from the last even to the first. 9 When therefore they were come, that came about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. 10 But when the first also came, they thought that they should receive more: and they also received every man a penny.

11 And receiving it they murmured against the master of the house, 12 Saying: These last have worked but one hour, and thou hast made them equal to us, that have borne the burden of the day and the heats. 13 But he answering said to one of them: Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst thou not agree with me for a penny? 14 Take what is thine, and go thy way: I will also give to this last even as to thee. 15 Or, is it not lawful for me to do what I will? is thy eye evil, because I am good?

16 So shall the last be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.

:tiphat:

Edited to add: a recording of a spectacular sermon from an unnamed FSSP priest who I am blessed to have met:
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/200902...-Hope.html
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