When did Vatican II become dogma?

The way these answers are worded, you'd think Vatican II was dogma. I hardly believe that Christians and Muslims worship the same God.  :censored:
WE DO NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah, that's what got me mad about the whole thing.  It's almost like they're brainwashed into saying stuff like that...or maybe they actually are...either way, it's a maddening subject.
A lot of legitimate theologians and philosophers teach this and I really don't know of any who do not (of course, I am not as well read as many people here!). Since the very essence of a non-contingent being on which all else is contingent  necessitates its existence and uniqueness, if someone acknowledges such a single non-contingent being on which all else depends (in other words, a creator), then they can only be acknowledging the Creator--even if they are ignorant of other truths about Him, believe various errors about Him, or do heinous things in His name. Likewise, since the one God can be discovered through natural means, acknowledgment of this one Creator can be accomplished apart from divine revelation (in fact, St. Paul says there is no excuse not to). For example, St. Paul states in Acts 17 that he preached the same one God to whom certain pagans had erected an altar and quoted pagan poets who spoke of Him. Similarly, there is documentation of sects in Mezoamerica who, without access to revelation. abandoned polytheism and the worship of idols and devils and entrusted themselves to the one God and Creator of all.

Muslims tend to fall in that category and tend not to be considered idolators by any well-known theologians as far as I can tell (unless they are said to adore Muhammed or the meteorite in Mecca, which is mistaken). For example, St. John of Damascus, in his "Heresies" considers them heretics, and notes that they only previously were idolators when they used to worship the morning star and Aphrodite who they called Khatar.

That being said, what some particular non-Catholic's beliefs are--that is, whether they believe in the one God or not--cannot be considered dogma as it is simply a matter of natural fact, not revealed truth. But, the point being, saying Muslims do adore the one God rather than an idol or a non-existent being with a contingent essence should not be cause for scandal or upset even if one disagrees on that point.

(NB: I am not saying that belief in the one God discounts the very real and grave errors present in Islam which are obstacles to salvation--denial of the divinity of Christ, etc.)
(09-20-2009, 10:00 PM)Munda_cor_meum Wrote: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/quickqu...word/Islam

The way these answers are worded, you'd think Vatican II was dogma. I hardly believe that Christians and Muslims worship the same God.  :censored:
I must admit I did not have a problem with the V2 points on this until I started to read Dimond brothers monastery site.

As an example. Two people know the same person who for the sake of demonstration we will call Bill. One of these people is his wife who regards him as a loving husband and devoted Father and the other is his employee who regards him as a hard taskmaster and does not like him. Is Bill therefore two people? No, he is the same person but there are two perceptions of the same person. The employee and his wife both know Bill's name, appearance, so that they identify him as the same person but yet their experience of him is vastly different. Then we have the case of nosy neighbour Jill who heard some lies about Bill and this has seriously coloured her perceptions of him. Does this mean that Bill is two persons Jill-Bill compared to Wife-Bill. No of course not. They are still the same person.

In this way the pagan greeks stumbled over the true God which Paul proclaimed as their "Unknown God" Paul then elucidated and filled in the details about this Unknown God and corrected some misperceptions about him.

This is what V2 tries to do. It seeks to establish a common ground of understanding about God and then build upon this foundation filling in details and correcting errors.

In the case of Jill, if his wife came to learn that Jill had learned lies about Bill then she would gently correctly Jill and say "No that's not true" here is the truth about Bill. Then Jill would "hopefully" change her opinion and think well of Bill. In the past, certain of our forbears in the church had the view that the Moslem was enemy number one and they needed to see things "The way we do" or burn.

Any Father changes his tack with his children, sometimes being merciful, sometimes being friendly, sometimes being angry. He seeks to gain a positive response from his child. Only after he has exhausted all options will he disown his child and cast him out of the family home.

V2 teaches us that there is a common brotherhood of man as we all descend from Adam and are all made in the image of God. So there are two kinds of brotherhood, this general brotherhood of man and the close brotherhood of naturally born or adopted brothers in a family or close tribe. Sometimes V2 will be meaning brotherhood in the general sense but critics of V2 will impose the close brotherhood we have in the church into the text and make it sound like offence to the close brotherhood of the church when no such meaning is intended.

While we were yet sinners the Holy God extended his righteous hand to us and took us by the hand when all we deserved was a slap across the face. If mother church errs on the side of grace then they will have hardly erred more than our Lord did for our sakes.

Who knows, this might be the last period of grace for the entire world. Let us not begrudge the world this kindness for the days of judgment loom always before us and more perilous shall it be for those of us who have extended harsh judgment upon our leaders in the church.
Whenever I think of Islam these days, I think of these verses:
John 4 Wrote:21 Jesus saith to her: Woman, believe me, that the hour cometh, when you shall neither on this mountain, not in Jerusalem, adore the Father. 22 You adore that which you know not: we adore that which we know; for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore him.

(09-20-2009, 10:00 PM)Munda_cor_meum Wrote: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/quickqu...word/Islam

The way these answers are worded, you'd think Vatican II was dogma. I hardly believe that Christians and Muslims worship the same God.  :censored:

JPII the clown Pope promoted this he says so in his book Crossing the threshold of hope which I like a good little neo-con bought back in my non trad days.
The amazing breadth of the phrase "worshiping the same God," applied consistently as it has been to the Muslims, gives the same label to the most terrible heresies, including the Arians, Cathars, and Pelagians.This seems to me to be apt company for Islam.
Ugh, this again ...

Let me be the contrarian: If an individual of good will "dials" the one and only God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, Who do you think picks up the phone?

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