A Problem of Traditionalism
(11-11-2009, 01:53 AM)Baskerville Wrote:
(11-11-2009, 01:44 AM)Rosarium Wrote:
(11-11-2009, 01:42 AM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(11-11-2009, 01:40 AM)Rosarium Wrote:
(11-11-2009, 01:36 AM)INPEFESS Wrote: Ok, well let me know next time you post something which isn't true.

What is the point of deception if I point it out? It would ruin my plans...

You make a good point. But now that I know you have plans of deception, I shall deem every one of your posts suspect of deception.

That is wise. I never assume someone is telling the truth. Whenever I actually point this out, people get offended, so I rarely do.

It would truly not surprise me if someone turned out to be lying about everything. You could be my mother, for all I know, despite all statements to the contrary.

As long as pissiltron isnt your mother I think your okay.

Although I don't agree with that poster on a great many things, how does "piss" factor into his username?
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(11-11-2009, 02:05 AM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(11-11-2009, 01:53 AM)Baskerville Wrote:
(11-11-2009, 01:44 AM)Rosarium Wrote:
(11-11-2009, 01:42 AM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(11-11-2009, 01:40 AM)Rosarium Wrote:
(11-11-2009, 01:36 AM)INPEFESS Wrote: Ok, well let me know next time you post something which isn't true.

What is the point of deception if I point it out? It would ruin my plans...

You make a good point. But now that I know you have plans of deception, I shall deem every one of your posts suspect of deception.

That is wise. I never assume someone is telling the truth. Whenever I actually point this out, people get offended, so I rarely do.

It would truly not surprise me if someone turned out to be lying about everything. You could be my mother, for all I know, despite all statements to the contrary.

As long as pissiltron isnt your mother I think your okay.

Although I don't agree with that poster on a great many things, how does "piss" factor into his username?

The letter P, juvenile imagination, and less sophisticated means of expression.
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(11-11-2009, 01:52 AM)Rosarium Wrote:
(11-11-2009, 01:51 AM)INPEFESS Wrote: Guilty until proven innocent?
No. I don't think they people are lying, just that they are possibly lying.

It is more of "no assumptions" (or as few as possible) rather than an assumption of guilt or innocence. I only know what was written. Nothing more.

Ok, I understand now.

Quote:
Quote:Haha! I would make a very hairy, deep-voiced mother. I don't think you'd find me very motherly.
...mom?

:laughing: You are a shrewd lad.
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(11-11-2009, 02:06 AM)Rosarium Wrote: The letter P, juvenile imagination, and less sophisticated means of expression.

Well, I believe Baskerville is 26 if my memory serves me correctly, so I hope that he is no longer subject to a juvenile imagination. I can relate to the general sentiment of distaste for his views, but I can't seem to make the jump. Can someone please help me out?
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(11-11-2009, 02:06 AM)INPEFESS Wrote: Ok, I understand now.
But don't take that to an extreme.

It only applies when I know I have severely limited information.

Start reading from Chapter 28 and go to Chapter 29 http://flag.blackened.net/dinsdale/dna/book2.html (for most browsers, press "Ctrl + F" and then search for Chapter 28.

Quote: :laughing: You are a shrewd lad.

Maybe I am...maybe I'm not.

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(11-11-2009, 02:10 AM)Rosarium Wrote:
(11-11-2009, 02:06 AM)INPEFESS Wrote: Ok, I understand now.
But don't take that to an extreme.

It only applies when I know I have severely limited information.

Start reading from Chapter 28 and go to Chapter 29 http://flag.blackened.net/dinsdale/dna/book2.html (for most browsers, press "Ctrl + F" and then search for Chapter 28.

Maybe some other time...
Quote:
Quote: :laughing: You are a shrewd lad.

Maybe I am...maybe I'm not.

Because I don't really know, do I? Is that your point?

If you can, enter the chat room...
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(11-10-2009, 11:43 PM)petrelton Wrote:
(11-10-2009, 10:07 PM)CrusaderKing Wrote:
(11-10-2009, 02:05 AM)nsper7 Wrote:
(11-10-2009, 01:01 AM)Baskerville Wrote:
(11-10-2009, 12:46 AM)petrelton Wrote: In hindsight the example was not really helpful to my argument.

It took hindsight,hindsight to realize that saying that  St er... Archbishop Lefabvre  ordained 4 courageous men out of necessity because the Church proper has fallen into modernist heresy Protestants. Wow I see why DK calls you pissiltron.

I think Petrelton was comparing the fact that both +Lefebvre and Martin Luther argued that their disobedience was necessary because of problems in the Church. Just as +Lefebvre was concerned about modernism and liberalism entering into the Church, so Martin Luther was concerned by corruption entering into the Church (i.e. sale of indulgences, worldiness and sinful actions, such as fathering children and then helping said children ascend to the Papacy or high ecclesiastical rank--origin of the word nepotism, of certain Popes and other members of the Hierarchy). Further, I think he is comparing the results (i.e. the universal indult and the allowing of TLM-only orders after +Lefebvre's disobedience; Council of Trent and the 'Counter-Reformation' as result of Luther's disobedience).

I am not saying I agree withe comparison, but I think that is the one he is making.

Here's some differences, as I see it:

1) Luther was trying to destroy the Faith, Archbishop Lefebvre was trying to preserve it.

2) The Church acknowledged the corruption and the danger it posed to the Faith that had taken hold in Luther's day. In fact ,as I recall, the Church agreed with about 62 of his 95 Theses. The Church, particularly Pope Paul VI, in spite of his "smoke of satan" remark, did not condemn the heresies running rampant in the Church in ABL's day, and really hasn't dealt with it the way it should.

3) Luther was as corrupt as they come, and he had no use for the Papacy, certain books of the Bible, the prophet Moses, and he blasphemed the Holy Ghost, which ABL did not. I urge anyone who's interested in finding out more about Martin Luther get the book "The Facts About Luther" by Msgr. Patrick F. O'Hare, published by TAN books.   
nsper correctly summarised my point which was appreciated although it was a pity he did not agree with me. Clearly Luther added to his sin of schism with the sin of heresy. I do not believe that ABL was a heretic. Therefore I was comparing his schismatic tendancies not his heresies. Nor am I trying to suggest that ABL is as openly schismatic as Luther was. No I think his schism is far more subtle. But the fact that a fault is subtle does not excuse it in the least. Nay. It simply makes it all the more dangerous.

The reason I disagreed with the comparison was because it gets too complicated eventually. After all, Luther was guilty of heresy, +Lefebvre was not. +Lefebvre was excommunicated for disobedience and the question of whether he was actually guilty of schism is much more confusing than the question of whether Luther was schismatic (he was). There were also possible issues of mental illness driving Luther and his own disagreements spiraled quickly out of control (i.e. questioning of corruption relating to indulgences disdain for the Pope and the Catholic Church), whereas +Lefebvre's concerns (whether right or wrong) were fairly specific and, even after his excommunication, he did not fall into Luther's hatred for the Church and the Pope.

Also, I don't know why everyone thinks I hate the SSPX. Do I disagree with their disobedience to the Pope and the Church? Yes, but I can see where they are coming from and, from a standpoint of whether +Lefebvre's disobedience which led to his excommunication constituted mortal sin, one could argue that in his own mind and conscience, he was driven by a devotion to the Church and to God and truly believe we were in times of grave emergency in which his disobedience would be allowable (in the end, that is up to God to judge). After all, wouldn't it be great if +Lefebvre, Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II are up in Heaven sipping whatever they drink up there and just hanging out?

I admire the SSPX's devotion to the Tridentine Latin Mass and I hope that very soon they are fully re-integrated Canonically into the Church and are able to spread their devotion to Tradition and the Ancient Mass throughout the rest of the Church.

I might add I am no fan of +Williamson (for various reasons...not just the Holocaust remark), but I respect how +Fellay and the rest of the SSPX dealt with +Williamson's unnecessary and inflammatory Holocaust statement.
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(11-11-2009, 02:15 AM)INPEFESS Wrote: Maybe some other time...
Maybe? A man's maybe, where it means it hasn't been decided yet, or a woman's maybe, where it means "no"?

Anyway, it was a funny section of the book (well, the entire thing is funny) which explored the issues in not trusting anything.

Here is a quote from the man which is the focus:
Quote:"How can I tell," said the man, "that the past isn't a fiction designed to account for the discrepancy between my immediate physical sensations and my state of mind?"

Quote:Because I don't really know, do I? Is that your point?
No point intended.

Quote:If you can, enter the chat room...
It doesn't follow standards, but I'm on IRC: http://catholicam.freehostia.com/forum/i...?topic=8.0 with some others (#fisheaters).
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(11-11-2009, 02:21 AM)Rosarium Wrote: It doesn't follow standards, but I'm on IRC: http://catholicam.freehostia.com/forum/i...?topic=8.0 with some others (#fisheaters).

It's telling me that I cannot register. I'm assuming it's personal?  ;)
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(11-11-2009, 02:27 AM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(11-11-2009, 02:21 AM)Rosarium Wrote: It doesn't follow standards, but I'm on IRC: http://catholicam.freehostia.com/forum/i...?topic=8.0 with some others (#fisheaters).

It's telling me that I cannot register. I'm assuming it's personal?  ;)

One can use the Guest account. Registration is disabled at the moment due to forum policy issues: http://catholicam.freehostia.com/forum/i...topic=27.0

If you can't follow the links, the first was a link to a thread in the Extra Ecclesiam Discussion forum, about IRC. The one I just posted was a thread in the Forum Concerns forum.
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