A Problem of Traditionalism
#21
(11-01-2009, 08:26 PM)Joshua Wrote:
nsper7 Wrote:Now, looking at Traditional Catholics, one notices a similar fracturing since the fracturing that occurred Post-Vatican 2.

Your comparison of traditionalists as somehow being comparable to the 35,000 + sects of Protestantism is both amusing and rather annoying. Diocesan TLM VS. Priestly-Order TLM? Seriously? What conflict are you seeing here that, in your mind, rivals the 500 year-old conflicts of Protestantism? I suppose Monasticism has followed the trend of Protestantism as well ... Franciscans, Benedictines, Dominicans, Carthusians, Carmelites, etc  not to mention all of the orders within orders... That is essentially the madness of what you are saying.

As usual you exhibit the same rhetoric of the majority of Trad-bashing Neo-Cons, namely, to complain about a leaky faucet inside a burning house. You sit amidst the festering ruins of the Novus Ordo experiment that has claimed the spiritual lives of countless Catholics, has divided parishes, continues to have Bishops persecute their own Priests and faithful for adhering to doctrinal and liturgical orthodoxy ... and you then have the audacity to invent conflicts amidst those who do not wish to go along for this train-wreck?

Matt. 7:5 - Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam in thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

In Corde Regis,
Joshua

Yeah, Joshua, go get 'em !!
Well said.
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#22
(11-01-2009, 08:26 PM)Joshua Wrote:
nsper7 Wrote:Now, looking at Traditional Catholics, one notices a similar fracturing since the fracturing that occurred Post-Vatican 2.

Your comparison of traditionalists as somehow being comparable to the 35,000 + sects of Protestantism is both amusing and rather annoying. Diocesan TLM VS. Priestly-Order TLM? Seriously? What conflict are you seeing here that, in your mind, rivals the 500 year-old conflicts of Protestantism? I suppose Monasticism has followed the trend of Protestantism as well ... Franciscans, Benedictines, Dominicans, Carthusians, Carmelites, etc  not to mention all of the orders within orders... That is essentially the madness of what you are saying.

As usual you exhibit the same rhetoric of the majority of Trad-bashing Neo-Cons, namely, to complain about a leaky faucet inside a burning house. You sit amidst the festering ruins of the Novus Ordo experiment that has claimed the spiritual lives of countless Catholics, has divided parishes, continues to have Bishops persecute their own Priests and faithful for adhering to doctrinal and liturgical orthodoxy ... and you then have the audacity to invent conflicts amidst those who do not wish to go along for this train-wreck?

Matt. 7:5 - Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam in thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

In Corde Regis,
Joshua

+1 Fish.

Joshua, man.  I am so glad you're back.
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#23
Oh, come on you lot,
Nsper has a legitimate observation/question. Are you simply trying to make sure that no-one but your gang gets into this discussion?
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#24
(11-01-2009, 03:48 PM)neanderthal catholic Wrote: I know that I am a new guy here but who is this nsper7 guy?

A trouble maker?

Did he stumble onto the wrong forum? 514 times?
Believe it or not there are traditionalists who do not condemn the Vatican 2 council, do not blame the Popes and the magisterium for every ill in the church and who do not forbid the celebration of the NO mass. These traditionalists of whom I proudly proclaim to be one are outraged by liturgical abuse and seek to provide God the best sacrifice possible at a Latin extraordinary form mass or at a very conservative NO mass. We seek to receive communion on the tongue kneeling, we like to see women clad with veils. But we do this in union and in sympathy with the Popes not in opposition to them. And yes I eat only fish on Fridays.

So why cannot I find a home here at fisheaters without being called a modernist troll and a troublemaker. Of course I cause trouble to some extent because I decry the rebellious actions of some factions of the SSPX. But that does not warrant the treatment I receive. I have been openly insulted in the crudist of manner.
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#25
(11-02-2009, 12:45 AM)Oldavid Wrote: Oh, come on you lot,
Nsper has a legitimate observation/question. Are you simply trying to make sure that no-one but your gang gets into this discussion?

No, it is not  'a legitimate observation/question'. It is a set up for his neo-Cath, neocon Trad bashing.. He's already admitted that he's not a Trad. He's a neo-Cath who likes the 'smells'n'bells'. He's a Trojan horse troll on this forum.
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#26
(11-02-2009, 05:18 AM)petrelton Wrote: Believe it or not there are traditionalists who do not condemn the Vatican 2 council,

In 25+ years in the ;Trad movement', I've never met a Trad who did not condemn V II. I've met a lot of neo-Caths like you who pretend to be Trads while accepting the heresies promulgated by this non-dogmatic, 'pastoral' Council,

(11-02-2009, 05:18 AM)petrelton Wrote: (D)o not blame the Popes and the magisterium for every ill in the church

Then who are we to blame for the the crisis of Faith we're faced with?

(11-02-2009, 05:18 AM)petrelton Wrote: and who do not forbid the celebration of the NO mass.

I accept the NO as a valid Catholic Mass when celebrated according to the rubrics, in a translation from the normative Latin. I have a great deal of problem with the paraphrases of the ICEL. The 'pro multis' comes to mind, a 'translation; condemned by the Holy and Oecumenical Synod of Trent. Even so, I attend the NO when necessary, despite its total lack of Catholic catechesis and its protestant character.


(11-02-2009, 05:18 AM)petrelton Wrote: So why cannot I find a home here at fisheaters without being called a modernist troll and a troublemaker.

Because you are a neo-Cath troublemaker, a troll with modernist leanings, eh.???

(11-02-2009, 05:18 AM)petrelton Wrote: Of course I cause trouble to some extent because I decry the rebellious actions of some factions of the SSPX. But that does not warrant the treatment I receive. I have been insulted
.

Yes, and you will continue to be 'insulted in the crudist (sic) manner' (at least by me) until you cease your unwarranted, uncharitible and unCatholic attacks on an entire segment of the Church which is dedicated to the defense of the Faith. Your anti-SSPX trolling is despicable!
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#27
(11-02-2009, 05:49 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(11-02-2009, 05:18 AM)petrelton Wrote: Believe it or not there are traditionalists who do not condemn the Vatican 2 council,

In 25+ years in the ;Trad movement', I've never met a Trad who did not condemn V II. I've met a lot of neo-Caths like you who pretend to be Trads while accepting the heresies promulgated by this non-dogmatic, 'pastoral' Council,
There are only two dogmatic documents in the council. Lumen Gentium and Dei Verbum. I have read and studied both of these documents and there is nothing wrong with them.

If there is a problem with them then let me know what they are and I will explain to you what the documents mean.

(11-02-2009, 05:49 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(11-02-2009, 05:18 AM)petrelton Wrote: (D)o not blame the Popes and the magisterium for every ill in the church

Then who are we to blame for the the crisis of Faith we're faced with?
We blame the huge social uprising of the 60's and the disobedience of the people. We might blame the magisterium for being weak and for listening to the people and for not correcting them. However many trads go way beyond that and accuse the Popes of heresy and of being communist and jewish infiltrators or worse. Sure some of the things the Popes have said have been dodgy but again nothing they have said or done warrants disobedience and rebellion or railing accusations.
(11-02-2009, 05:49 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(11-02-2009, 05:18 AM)petrelton Wrote: and who do not forbid the celebration of the NO mass.

I accept the NO as a valid Catholic Mass when celebrated according to the rubrics, in a translation from the normative Latin. I have a great deal of problem with the paraphrases of the ICEL. The 'pro multis' comes to mind, a 'translation; condemned by the Holy and Oecumenical Synod of Trent. Even so, I attend the NO when necessary, despite its total lack of Catholic catechesis and its protestant character.
Well I am pleased to here it. We are in agreement on this point. However many trads utterly ban the NO mass and call those who attend them sinners and in some cases even shun family members who attend them. I will certainly speak out against such general and outrageous condemnations of the NO mass and those who attend them.
(11-02-2009, 05:49 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(11-02-2009, 05:18 AM)petrelton Wrote: So why cannot I find a home here at fisheaters without being called a modernist troll and a troublemaker.

Because you are a neo-Cath troublemaker, a troll with modernist leanings, eh.???

(11-02-2009, 05:18 AM)petrelton Wrote: Of course I cause trouble to some extent because I decry the rebellious actions of some factions of the SSPX. But that does not warrant the treatment I receive. I have been insulted
.

Yes, and you will continue to be 'insulted in the crudist (sic) manner' (at least by me) until you cease your unwarranted, uncharitible and unCatholic attacks on an entire segment of the Church which is dedicated to the defense of the Faith. Your anti-SSPX trolling is despicable!
Poor Jupiter. Your problem is that you can never answer any of the points I raise accept to blare out at me the oft repeated accusation that I am a modernist troll. If what I say is despicable or wrong then show me where I am wrong. Don't just parrot banal accusations.
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#28
Pissiltron u need a diaper change
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#29
What's funny is..
The fact that were called Trads in and of itself proves we've been ghettoized by these crackpots.
We've been locked in a caged, forced to whatch un speakable acts against our faith.
Poked mocked condmned marginalized and displaced,
and their such dimwits when they feign suprise when were maybe a wee bit cranky
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#30
(11-01-2009, 04:07 PM)nsper7 Wrote: Well, I am not technically Traditional Catholic, but more a Neo-Conservative/Neo-Orthodox (not the schismatic Orthodox, but little 'o' orthodox in the sense of begin against heterodox/heretical teachings and ideas) Catholic with some possibly Traditional leanings.

My question I think is a valid one. Traditional Catholicism seems to have bred a great deal of division within the Church.

Oh, and your "Neo-Conservative/Orthodox" views are not a division? This is not a political organisation!

The Church is traditional and One.

Start there, before labeling yourself "neo" anything. Be Catholic.
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