Priestly Vows of Obedience
#1
When a person receives Holy Orders and becomes a Priest, they make certain vows, especially a vow of obedience? Who are they vowing to obey? My understanding is that they are promising to obey their Bishop (if they are Diocesan) or their Superior (if they are religious). Therefore, as it relates to the Traditional issues, aren't Priests still required to obey their Bishop (and the Church in general)? For example, the Church has deemed the NO Mass valid and the Ordinary Form, therefore aren't Latin Rite Priests required to celebrate it if there Bishop so desires it?

It seems like if you are a Priest, then you are required to obey your superiors (either Diocesan or religious) and you are always required to adhere to Canon Law, correct?

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#2
(11-04-2009, 02:31 PM)nsper7 Wrote: When a person receives Holy Orders and becomes a Priest, they make certain vows, especially a vow of obedience? Who are they vowing to obey? My understanding is that they are promising to obey their Bishop (if they are Diocesan) or their Superior (if they are religious). Therefore, as it relates to the Traditional issues, aren't Priests still required to obey their Bishop (and the Church in general)? For example, the Church has deemed the NO Mass valid and the Ordinary Form, therefore aren't Latin Rite Priests required to celebrate it if there Bishop so desires it?

It seems like if you are a Priest, then you are required to obey your superiors (either Diocesan or religious) and you are always required to adhere to Canon Law, correct?

Your intent is clear;  Counselor Troi is not needed.

God is always first when it comes to obedience.

As for Canon law, it does allow for "disobedience" when it is necessary.

Obeying superiors is a grave duty of a Christian (for all). Even the commands of an angel or saint are inferior to those of a superior. The vows are also superior. In the records of a certain saint's reception of an apparition of Our Lady, his order had a special prayer time, and the bell rang and he had to leave. When he returned, he was told if he had not followed his vow, he would never again have seen her.

However, the Church has many humans in it, and there are times when "disobedience" is necessary to be true to one's vow.
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#3
(11-04-2009, 02:33 PM)Rosarium Wrote:
(11-04-2009, 02:31 PM)nsper7 Wrote: When a person receives Holy Orders and becomes a Priest, they make certain vows, especially a vow of obedience? Who are they vowing to obey? My understanding is that they are promising to obey their Bishop (if they are Diocesan) or their Superior (if they are religious). Therefore, as it relates to the Traditional issues, aren't Priests still required to obey their Bishop (and the Church in general)? For example, the Church has deemed the NO Mass valid and the Ordinary Form, therefore aren't Latin Rite Priests required to celebrate it if there Bishop so desires it?

It seems like if you are a Priest, then you are required to obey your superiors (either Diocesan or religious) and you are always required to adhere to Canon Law, correct?

Your intent is clear;  Counselor Troi is not needed.

God is always first when it comes to obedience.

As for Canon law, it does allow for "disobedience" when it is necessary.

I didn't get the first line. Anyway...

In terms of the second line, what does that mean? Remember, we recognize the authority of the Church and of the Successors to the Apostles. Therefore, couldn't it be argued that even if we personally feel that God is calling us to do something in contravention of the Bishop, etc., we must still obey the laws of the Church.

In terms of the third line, I know there are parts of Canon Law that allow for "disobedience" to superiors under certain circumstances, but are there any laws that require such disobedience, except in cases of sin (i.e. if the Bishop orders you to murder someone...)?
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#4
(11-04-2009, 02:39 PM)nsper7 Wrote: I didn't get the first line. Anyway...
You are better off.

Quote:In terms of the second line, what does that mean? Remember, we recognize the authority of the Church and of the Successors to the Apostles. Therefore, couldn't it be argued that even if we personally feel that God is calling us to do something in contravention of the Bishop, etc., we must still obey the laws of the Church.
And if the laws of the Church give way to be "disobedient", and if a person truly believes that situation to apply, would they not be equally compelled to be "disobedient" in order to stay true to their vow?

Quote:In terms of the third line, I know there are parts of Canon Law that allow for "disobedience" to superiors under certain circumstances, but are there any laws that require such disobedience, except in cases of sin (i.e. if the Bishop orders you to murder someone...)?
That is a vague question. What are the parts of Canon Law which allow for disobedience. Post it here in entirety.
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#5
And I am not just asking this question on 'academic'/'philosophical' grounds as it were, but because I have a strong desire for the Priesthood.
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#6
Quote:And if the laws of the Church give way to be "disobedient", and if a person truly believes that situation to apply, would they not be equally compelled to be "disobedient" in order to stay true to their vow?

But if there vow of obedience is through their Bishop, then how can they justify disobedience to their Bishop?

Quote:That is a vague question. What are the parts of Canon Law which allow for disobedience. Post it here in entirety.

You were the one who brought up the issue of Canon Law allowing for disobedience. Why don't you bring up the involved parts? I am not disbelieving you.
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#7
(11-04-2009, 02:46 PM)nsper7 Wrote: You were the one who brought up the issue of Canon Law allowing for disobedience. Why don't you bring up the involved parts? I am not disbelieving you.

Yes, I brought it up with no citation.

I ask you to post it because research is good for the soul for those who ask questions on forums.
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#8
St. Thomas Aquinas on obedience:
http://www.fisheaters.com/summa22104.html
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#9
(11-04-2009, 02:50 PM)jonkknox Wrote: St. Thomas Aquinas on obedience:
http://www.fisheaters.com/summa22104.html

Thanks. When St. Thomas Aquinas gives his 'Reply to Objection 3', what does he mean by 'regular mode of life' for a religious?
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#10
(11-04-2009, 02:31 PM)nsper7 Wrote: When a person receives Holy Orders and becomes a Priest, they make certain vows, especially a vow of obedience? Who are they vowing to obey? My understanding is that they are promising to obey their Bishop (if they are Diocesan) or their Superior (if they are religious). Therefore, as it relates to the Traditional issues, aren't Priests still required to obey their Bishop (and the Church in general)? For example, the Church has deemed the NO Mass valid and the Ordinary Form, therefore aren't Latin Rite Priests required to celebrate it if there Bishop so desires it?

It seems like if you are a Priest, then you are required to obey your superiors (either Diocesan or religious) and you are always required to adhere to Canon Law, correct?

Yes, secular priests vow obedience to their bishop.  Within the bounds of obedience, priest have certain rights guaranteed to them, among which is the right to offer any form of the Mass in their particular rite.  The details aren't as black-and-white as I'm making it seem, you'll have to speak to your ordinary to be certain.  That said, most diocesan priests who offer the TLM usually do it with the understanding of their bishop, and usually in a church that is bi-formal.  I'd guess that most diocesan priests are bi-formal by necessessity.

The traditional priestly fraternities (ICRSS and FSSP are the main ones in the USA) operate in a diocese with the permission of the bishop.  It is not inconceivable to think that arrangement includes an understanding that the fraternity priests would not be expected to offer the NO.
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