Vatican astronomer says if aliens exist, they may not need redemption
#81
My personal understanding is that the fall of man led to the entire creation falling into decay (see scripture quotes below video). So it would really suck for intelligent aliens who were living in paradise to lose their paradise because of events on earth. Ergo, I don't think there are any aliens.

The position of the church is that only God can generate life, so if we're created in his image, why would he have gone to the trouble of creating intelligent extraterrestrials?

and if there's life on other planets
then i'm sure that He must know
and He's been there once already
and has died to save their souls

-- Larry Norman



For creation awaits with eager expectation the revelation of the children of God; for creation was made subject to futility, not of its own accord but because of the one who subjected it, in hope that creation itself would be set free from slavery to corruption and share in the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that all creation is groaning in labor pains even until now; and not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, we also groan within ourselves as we wait for adoption, the redemption of our bodies. Romans 8:19-23 New American Bible

For the expectation of the creature waiteth for the revelation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him that made it subject, in hope: Because the creature also itself shall be delivered from the servitude of corruption, into the liberty of the glory of the children of God. For we know that every creature groaneth and travaileth in pain, even till now. And not only it, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption of the sons of God, the redemption of our body. Romans 8:19-23 Douay-Rheims

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#82
Why would he create the billions of galaxies we don't even know about, if there is no one in them capable of giving him glory?
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#83
I think the possibility of other intelligent beings that worship Almighty God is probable. I think this, because God is a Creator, so why stop with us, the plants, the animals, and this planet. Look at extinction. Could it be, God creates other species to please Himself ?

I think if they are fallen creatures like us then interstellar travel is too much for them as us. If they are not fallen, and retain preternatural abilities, they might travel here but would not interfere, if the Almighty has a prohibition, because of our fallen nature, not theirs.

I really would like to know what goes on for real in that Observatory in Arizona. They don't need one that big to fix the dates for Easter, and their hogging the time there to the exclusion of astronomy students tells me they are up to something.

tim
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#84
George Lucas will be happy to hear about this. Especially since the rebels in his movies, Luke, Han et al, are the Protestant/Jewish alliance against the Evil Empire aka the Catholic Church.
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#85
Timoose, that's a very interesting idea, that the God who loves us enough to save us and descend into our own sin ti sanctify us, would also quarantine us so that any part of creation that is untouched cannot be corrupted by us.  I think that is a very logical hypothesis, since sin corrupts everything it comes into contact with.
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#86
Yep and God is Love, so we ain't all. I always go back to the New Jerusalem descending out of the Heaven. Why ? If we are all going to heaven, to sit on clouds or something. I think God's original plan has many many moving parts, and when our trial is through, we'll join the rest of God's Creation.

tim
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#87
(03-01-2011, 02:40 PM)Melkite Wrote: Why would he create the billions of galaxies we don't even know about, if there is no one in them capable of giving him glory?

The pre-Enlightenment belief goes to astrology.  They implement the natural courses of things, such as the moon affecting tides and such.  Other planets and things have a greater or lesser effect on the natural course of things.

St. Thomas agreed with this in a way in the Summa.

Of course, maybe that's not true.  Maybe astrology is complete crap.  In which case, I would say that these things are proof of God's power and glory in Creation just like singing birds and beautiful flowers.  Flowers don't need to be pretty, but they are, and they testify to God.  We might not need millions of galaxies, but they are evidence of what God is capable of.
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#88
(03-01-2011, 12:46 PM)Melkite Wrote: If they exist and have a civilization of their own, I imagine that each one probably is in a different galaxy, millions of light years away.  If JC hasn't come back in 30 million or so, maybe we'll get to meet the ones in Andromeda when their galaxy crashes into ours.

I don't believe that galaxies can collide.  It has never been observed, and what are purported to be galaxies in the state of "collision" can be explained as particular instants along the extrapolated evolution of a galaxy according to the electric/plasma model of cosmology.  There are papers on this, but I don't have the time right now to find the links to them.

What is more likely to happen before then is a complete transformation of both galaxies from spiral to another shape (I can't remember which one it's  supposed to be).  Who knows how different things would be on this planet if its galaxy was a different shape...  In the electric/plasma model, there should be drastic differences.

At any rate, I also do not believe in the physical limitations that Special Relativity and Newtonian "motion mechanics" dare to impose on the field of aeronautical engineering.  There's no evidence that the real world does not break everything in those theories purported to be a law.  So I think it is physically possible to build a vehicle for travel to the Andromeda Galaxy in which the travel time can be reduced to, at the very most, a few years, and, at least, a few seconds.  Don't worry, I've read about this.  I'm not pulling it out of my hat.

Therefore, if there are other races of significant beings in the universe, some of them have probably already been here, or are here now, or will be here not too much later.

(03-01-2011, 12:46 PM)Melkite Wrote: 1.  Maybe they weren't tested, like the animals on earth aren't tested.  In speculative theology, is it possible to have a highly intelligent, non-rational being, capable of building an advanced civilization without the need of conscience?  Ultimately, I suppose they would be what the evolutionists believe we are.

No, I don't think that's possible.  If you retain theology, then, by definition, only significant beings (i.e., beings made in God's image--that is, with free will and reason and so forth) are capable of the kinds of things that are generally thought only humans can do.

(03-01-2011, 12:46 PM)Melkite Wrote: 2.  If their ancestors passed, are they still tested individually?  Do some now pass and others fail?  Do the ones who pass shun those who fail, or do they mix and produce offspring who have only partially inherited original sin?
If their ancestors failed, did Jesus' death here count for them, or would he have to die on their planet for them?  If he only died here for us, but did not for them, does that mean he loves them less than us?  He loves all of his creation, but he only became incarnate for us.

With the exception of the bolded questions, I think these can be answered by the nature of the test.  We would have to know that detail, I think, to be to answer at all.

As for what I bolded, the answer to 2) would have to be "no" certainly given what we know of God.  To 3), the reason He became one of us is related to the fact that we sinned.  It could be (and this idea comes from C.S. Lewis) that the devil's influence in the cosmos started on Earth, in humanity.  Thus, it seems logical for the remedy to that situation to come from the same thing.  Since we don't really know how evil might have influenced any other significant race, I don't think we can answer 1.

(03-01-2011, 12:46 PM)Melkite Wrote: I think, ultimately, without new, public revelation, the Church's only responsibility to them would be to offer them conditional baptism if they desired it.

There was, in fact, another person affiliated with the Vatican's astronomy project who said something along those lines if I'm not mistaken.  I'll have to search for that...
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#89
(03-01-2011, 02:40 PM)Melkite Wrote: Why would he create the billions of galaxies we don't even know about, if there is no one in them capable of giving him glory?

Maybe we can spend eternity exploring them when we're in heaven?
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#90
(03-01-2011, 02:09 PM)Bakuryokuso Wrote: My personal understanding is that the fall of man led to the entire creation falling into decay (see scripture quotes below video). So it would really suck for intelligent aliens who were living in paradise to lose their paradise because of events on earth. Ergo, I don't think there are any aliens.

The position of the church is that only God can generate life, so if we're created in his image, why would he have gone to the trouble of creating intelligent extraterrestrials?

and if there's life on other planets
then i'm sure that He must know
and He's been there once already
and has died to save their souls

-- Larry Norman

Unless, at some time in our past, we facilitated the spread of evil in the cosmos.  If so, there was likely a war.
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