Blood Libel
#11
I dont really know I really never knew about these two "un"saints(the Vatican, due to Ecumania doesnt recognize them anymore) up until last year at about this time. THe little studying on them that I have done convinces me personaly that they may have been murdered by jews(just look at what the jews do in Palestine now) but as far as their blood mixed in with their matzo ball soup highly unlikely due to the Jews strong beliefs in no blood. But who knows.
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#12
Of course these blood libels existed! It was part of the Jewish perfidy and perversity against Christians.

St. Simon of Trent, pray for us.
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#13
(11-18-2009, 05:57 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: Of course these blood libels existed!

So you admit that they are libels? If not, do you also believe that the Jews poisoned wells to cause the Black Death? Where do you draw the line in believing the stories of ignorant mobs looking for scapegoats?
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#14
(11-18-2009, 09:27 AM)veritatem_dilexisti Wrote:
(11-18-2009, 05:57 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: Of course these blood libels existed!

So you admit that they are libels? If not, do you also believe that the Jews poisoned wells to cause the Black Death? Where do you draw the line in believing the stories of ignorant mobs looking for scapegoats?

That's the thing though, these weren't just mob-rumors but were held up in civil and ecclesiastical courts; in the cast of St. Simon of Trent the Jewish defendants appealed to the Pope and he himself weighed in with the prosecution.

Not that that means the "blood libel" thing is true but it was certainly more than the story of an ignorant mob looking for a scapegoat.
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#15
Yep
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#16
(11-18-2009, 09:27 AM)veritatem_dilexisti Wrote:
(11-18-2009, 05:57 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: Of course these blood libels existed!
Where do you draw the line in believing the stories of ignorant mobs looking for scapegoats?

The line is drawn between truth and falsehood.

The trials happened and those accused were convicted. They were not "ignorant mobs looking for scapegoats" but civil and ecclesiastical authorities that were competent on the matter and judged accordingly. If this case had happened with anyone but Jews, no-one today in our pro-Jewry intellectual environment would be questioning it.
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#17
There were, at the fringes of medieval society, sorcerers practicing a sort of magic that had its origins in Late Antiquity and was once widespread around the Mediterranean. By means of seals, incantations (such as the names of God), and offerings, men hoped to solicit the assistance of demons and even acquire mastery over them. In Jewish oral tradition, and later in the Qu'ran, Solomon is claimed to have derived his wisdom from mastery over such spirits, and a number of magic manuals of the medieval period are of purported Solomonic origin. Of course, this is false and slanderous, an infernal lie intended to deceive men, and a local council at the University of Paris in the 15th century demonstrated that if anything supernatural were happening in such rituals, the demons only feigned submission in order to damn. We can see in this the origin of the Faust legend.

We know that medieval magical literature occasionally references very cruel and disgusting things, like offerings of blood, and the rituals claimed to offer anything from treasure to women to a sort of demonic murder for hire. We further know that such literature and practices were adapted from and influenced by Hebrew and Arabic antecedents.

It does not defy imagination to think that outside the religious mainstream of the Jewish community were a few individuals pursuing very ugly, infernal things, just as there were gentiles damned through the same impiety. In our own day, women will sometimes even murder their own children by abortion out of spite for a lover, or for the sake of convenience, or some other petty end. Why is it so unthinkable that men who genuinely thought that murder would provide them with even greater benefits through intercourse with demons would likewise murder children themselves, especially those of strangers, whose lives were held by doctrine to be worth less?
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#18
(11-18-2009, 04:55 PM)Cyriacus Wrote: There were, at the fringes of medieval society, sorcerers practicing a sort of magic that had its origins in Late Antiquity and was once widespread around the Mediterranean. By means of seals, incantations (such as the names of God), and offerings, men hoped to solicit the assistance of demons and even acquire mastery over them. In Jewish oral tradition, and later in the Qu'ran, Solomon is claimed to have derived his wisdom from mastery over such spirits, and a number of magic manuals of the medieval period are of purported Solomonic origin. Of course, this is false and slanderous, an infernal lie intended to deceive men, and a local council at the University of Paris in the 15th century demonstrated that if anything supernatural were happening in such rituals, the demons only feigned submission in order to damn. We can see in this the origin of the Faust legend.

We know that medieval magical literature occasionally references very cruel and disgusting things, like offerings of blood, and the rituals claimed to offer anything from treasure to women to a sort of demonic murder for hire. We further know that such literature and practices were adapted from and influenced by Hebrew and Arabic antecedents.

It does not defy imagination to think that outside the religious mainstream of the Jewish community were a few individuals pursuing very ugly, infernal things, just as there were gentiles damned through the same impiety. In our own day, women will sometimes even murder their own children by abortion out of spite for a lover, or for the sake of convenience, or some other petty end. Why is it so unthinkable that men who genuinely thought that murder would provide them with even greater benefits through intercourse with demons would likewise murder children themselves, especially those of strangers, whose lives were held by doctrine to be worth less?

It's interesting that you bring that up.

I've always been curious about the origins of the renaissance grimoires - The Keys of Solomon and all that sort of stuff.  Not that it's exactly advisable to look into such matters too deeply, but there was a time in my life when I was very very curious about those things and the grimoires are certainly very . . . Jewish.  i.e. lots of Hebrew, etc.

But do they have their origins in Late Antiquity?  I always thought that the "magic" of later antiquity was more like rustic talismans and brief charms and all that.
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#19
(11-17-2009, 08:53 PM)John92 Wrote: The Old Testament talks about the Jews sacrificing children,

Other than Issac, where do we see this in the OT?
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#20
(11-18-2009, 06:52 PM)Pilgrim Wrote:
(11-17-2009, 08:53 PM)John92 Wrote: The Old Testament talks about the Jews sacrificing children,

Other than Issac, where do we see this in the OT?

Micheas 6

Human sacrifices are mentioned more.
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