Blood Libel
#21
(11-18-2009, 05:08 PM)John92 Wrote: But do they have their origins in Late Antiquity?  I always thought that the "magic" of later antiquity was more like rustic talismans and brief charms and all that.

It is true that demons did not occupy the centrality that they later would, and there was much in the way of crudeness in the folk magic of antiquity: demon bowls inscribed with magic words and turned over to trap any pernicious forces, lead tablets scratched with the Tetragrammaton and magic words to curse some party or attain some end, etc. But the myth of Solomon as a master of legions of demons is of genuine antique origins, dating back to the early centuries of our era, as is the idea that men may follow in his steps by learning that art:

Josephus (c. 37-100 AD) Judaica 8.42-49
Quote:42] Now the sagacity and wisdom which God had bestowed on Solomon was so great, that he exceeded the ancients; insomuch that he was no way inferior to the Egyptians, who are said to have been beyond all men in understanding; nay, indeed, it is evident that their sagacity was very much inferior to that of the king's. He also excelled and distinguished himself in wisdom above those who were most eminent among the Hebrews at that time for shrewdness; those I mean were Ethan, and Heman, and Chalcol, and Darda, the sons of Mahol. He also composed books of odes and songs a thousand and five, of parables and similitudes three thousand; for he spake a parable upon every sort of tree, from the hyssop to the cedar; and in like manner also about beasts, about all sorts of living creatures, whether upon the earth, or in the seas, or in the air; for he was not unacquainted with any of their natures, nor omitted inquiries about them, but described them all like a philosopher, and demonstrated his exquisite knowledge of their several properties. God also enabled him to learn that skill which expels demons, 3 which is a science useful and sanative to men. He composed such incantations also by which distempers are alleviated. And he left behind him the manner of using exorcisms, by which they drive away demons, so that they never return; and this method of cure is of great force unto this day; for I have seen a certain man of my own country, whose name was Eleazar, releasing people that were demoniacal in the presence of Vespasian, and his sons, and his captains, and the whole multitude of his soldiers. The manner of the cure was this: He put a ring that had a Foot of one of those sorts mentioned by Solomon to the nostrils of the demoniac, after which he drew out the demon through his nostrils; and when the man fell down immediately, he abjured him to return into him no more, making still mention of Solomon, and reciting the incantations which he composed. And when Eleazar would persuade and demonstrate to the spectators that he had such a power, he set a little way off a cup or basin full of water, and commanded the demon, as he went out of the man, to overturn it, and thereby to let the spectators know that he had left the man; and when this was done, the skill and wisdom of Solomon was shown very manifestly: for which reason it is, that all men may know the vastness of Solomon's abilities, and how he was beloved of God, and that the extraordinary virtues of every kind with which this king was endowed may not be unknown to any people under the sun for this reason, I say, it is that we have proceeded to speak so largely of these matters.

The Testament of Solomon, dated by scholars between the second and fifth centuries, describes a catalogue of demons in elaborate detail that anticipates the later grimoires, and describes in a first-person account how Solomon bound spirits, compelling them to construct the Temple.

Of course there were changes, and there wasn't full-blown necromantic ceremony early on, but the ground was laid for such developments as the shift from exorcism and overcoming demonic evil to attempting to exploit it.
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#22
(11-18-2009, 06:57 PM)Rosarium Wrote: Micheas 6

Human sacrifices are mentioned more.

Thanks Rosarium!  Here's the relevant passage:

Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams,
      with ten thousand rivers of oil?
      Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression,
      the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?  (Micah 6:7)

Given that the passage deals with "thousands of rams" and "ten thousand rivers of oil," I think this is an example of hyperbole, not instruction...
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#23
There is most certainly a precedent in antiquity in regard to widespread practice of child sacrifice among the Jews or, at the very least, certain portions of Jews who adopted the practices of neighboring tribes/nations.

One of the Judges of the Israelites, Jephthah, sacrificed his daughter after defeating the Ammonites:

Judges 11:31 "Whosoever shall first come forth out of the doors of my house, and shall meet me when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, the same will I offer a holocaust to the Lord ... 39. And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed"

This abomination was widely practiced among the Phoenicians and Canaanites, whose cultures would trickle into the Kingdom of Judah via increasing Hellenization or through conquest.  The Jews fell repeatedly into these abominations (such as the period of the Cult of Ba'al once widespread in Judah) as evidenced by:

Jeremias 7:30 "Because the children of Juda have done evil in my eyes, saith the Lord. They have set their abominations in the house in which my name is called upon, to pollute it. 31 And they have built the high places of Topeth, which is in the valley of the son of Ennom, to burn their sons, and their daughters in the fire ..."

Now certainly, much of the alleged tales and stories involving Jews performing all manner of arcane and odious rituals and practices are to be taken with a large amount of grains of salt, however it would be inaccurate to believe that these claims sprung forth out of thin air.

In Corde Regis,
Joshua
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#24
So . . . whaddya think?  Were Little St. Hugh of Lincoln and St. Simon of Trent really murdered by a sect of radical Ashkenazim, or is the whole thing a myth?

[T]he charge of drinking the blood of children at Passover has been leveled against the Jews consistently for several millenia;  also Ariel Toaff, himself a Jew, professor of Medieval and Renaissance History at the Bar-Ilan University (second-largest in Israel), and son of a former Chief Rabbi, wrote a very involved work examining the case of St. Simon of Trent and argued that certain fringe (very fringe) elements in Ashkenazi Judaism may have practiced a passover of blood at various points in history, this work being found here: http://www.bloodpassover.com/
 

It's interesting, isn't it, that when Christians entertain the possibility fringe elements among the Jews perpetrated lurid atrocities against Christians here and there, that's called a blood libel; whereas we're all supposed to believe--at the risk of being called racists, anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers--that  Christians have routinely massacred millions of Jews throughout history?  Funny how that works. 
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#25
(11-18-2009, 06:52 PM)Pilgrim Wrote:
(11-17-2009, 08:53 PM)John92 Wrote: The Old Testament talks about the Jews sacrificing children,

Other than Issac, where do we see this in the OT?

The sacrifices to Moloch come to mind; infants would be put in metal containers and burned in a fire.
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#26
I read that St. Simon of Trent's shrine was "dismantled" (ie: desecrated?) after Vat II.  Does anyone know where the shrine was located and what is located there now (if anything)?
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#27
(11-18-2009, 11:53 PM)mike6240 Wrote: I read that St. Simon of Trent's shrine was "dismantled" (ie: desecrated?) after Vat II.  Does anyone know where the shrine was located and what is located there now (if anything)?

I am not sure if anything exists anymore but I have heard that after the Freemasons took over the Vatican during Vatican II St Simon of Trent and Little St hugh of lincoln were struck from the calendar and all their shrines and relics destroyed.
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#28
(11-18-2009, 10:45 PM)anamchara Wrote: So . . . whaddya think?  Were Little St. Hugh of Lincoln and St. Simon of Trent really murdered by a sect of radical Ashkenazim, or is the whole thing a myth?

[T]he charge of drinking the blood of children at Passover has been leveled against the Jews consistently for several millenia;  also Ariel Toaff, himself a Jew, professor of Medieval and Renaissance History at the Bar-Ilan University (second-largest in Israel), and son of a former Chief Rabbi, wrote a very involved work examining the case of St. Simon of Trent and argued that certain fringe (very fringe) elements in Ashkenazi Judaism may have practiced a passover of blood at various points in history, this work being found here: http://www.bloodpassover.com/
 

It's interesting, isn't it, that when Christians entertain the possibility fringe elements among the Jews perpetrated lurid atrocities against Christians here and there, that's called a blood libel; whereas we're all supposed to believe--at the risk of being called racists, anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers--that  Christians have routinely massacred millions of Jews throughout history?  Funny how that works. 

Well when you have a heretical Pope going around apologizing for everything the Church has ever done that'll happen.
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#29
Children are still found murdered and dismembered.
There is no a priori reason to think that this didn't happen 1,000 years ago, and even less reason to think that Jews are immune to such activities.
I am not saying they did it, but I am saying that they are just as likely or unlikely as anyone else.
Weirdos come in all shapes, sizes and religions including bizzare rip-off religious sects.
Why do the Jews think that this is not even a possibility?
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#30
(11-19-2009, 03:29 AM)winoblue1 Wrote: Why do the Jews think that this is not even a possibility?

Because they're "special" and we hate them.
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