Mark of the Beast
#41
John C,

Rosarium is one of the most logical people on the forum.  So am I.  I have read all his posts, and there's no fault with them.  There's nothing wrong with the "chance" argument.  You're buying into conspiracy theory.  Nothing intrinsically wrong with doing so, but in this case it's leading you astray.

You're wrong, kid, get over it.
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#42
John. open your eyes dude. Approach this question open-mindedly, as one should with all questions, initially. Remove personal sentiment from the equation (i'm right you're wrong etc) as it will only get in the way. Allow the evidence and logical conclusions to form the correct bias, and pursue the greater Truth.

Pax, brother.
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#43
Quote:Quote from: John C
Because u thought i was calling Satan when i wasn't

What makes you think I thought you were calling me Satan? I asked a question, a query for information. Based on that, I did not think anything and wanted more information.

Rosarium, now you show urself to be a liar as well - try not not to talk nonsense


Quote:
Quote:Perhaps u can explain how i'm not following the Church?

The Church has nothing to say of barcodes, and if there where the Mark of the Beast so explicitly, I'm sure the Church would let us know.

And where the Church is silent we are free to make our own investigation as u very well know. Don't try to make it sound as though i am outside of Church teaching when i'm not.
There is no Church dogma that the Church always infallibly lets us know of things that are important; necessary for salvation - yes; of 'importance' - no
Again u demonstrate that u haven't read my posts - my contention is not that the barcode is the mark of the beast - it may very well be preparing the way and is almost certainly involved in some way. Make that mistake again Rosarium and i will have no choice but to conclude that ur are deliberately distorting my argument - setting up a straw man for urself.

The Church can very well be blinded by something like this and that's why Pius VI said :

'But if the wicked enemy of the human race, the better to frustrate your efforts, ever brings it about that a plague of epidemic proportions is hidden from the religious powers of the world, please do not be terrified but walk in God's house in harmony, with prayer, and in truth, the three arms of our service. Remember that when the people of Juda were defiled, the best means of purification was the public reading to all, from the least to the greatest, of the book of the law lately found by the priest Helcias in the Lord's temple; at once the whole people agreed to destroy the abominations and seal a covenant in the Lord's presence to follow after the Lord and observe His precepts, testimonies and ceremonies with their whole heart and soul."'  Inscrutabile: Pius VI, 1775.


Quote:'The Church would let us know'
Try not to make me die laughing, the Church is doing an absolutely woeful job of informing Catholics of the dangers of today. The fact that u could say such a thing illustrates perfectly that you are either outrageously ignorant or an out and out liar.

Quote:look it up, it is connected to almost everything.
Bad logic again, Mr logic; just because some people connect it to almost everything doesn't mean it's connected to nothing. And; are all those other things used for buying and selling?


Quote:
Quote:Rosarium did u even bother to read my original post?

Yes.

Obviously u didn't or u wouldn't keep inferring that i said the barcode 666 is the mark of the beast - get it right please

Quote:Rosarium is one of the most logical people on the forum.  So am I.  I have read all his posts, and there's no fault with them.  There's nothing wrong with the "chance" argument.  You're buying into conspiracy theory.  Nothing intrinsically wrong with doing so, but in this case it's leading you astray.

Spare me the repeated rhetorical use of the word 'logic' as though u and Rosarium owned the copyright, while at the same time completely ignoring it's obvious conclusions.

Quote:Rosarium is one of the most logical people on the forum.  So am I
'Do you see a man wise in his own eyes - more hope for a fool than for him' Proverbs 26:12

When i asked u what ur explanation was - if u had even said something like 'the inventor may have done it to wind up Christians' or the 'inventor was obviously a Satanist but I don't believe it has any other connection with the true mark than that', that would have been something; but 'no connection', 'chance', 'ain't it weird how things work out'     ????????   

like i said - that's an insult and woeful logic. Go and work out the chances of a coincidence like that. The result will be that chance is completely unreasonable.


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#44
(12-02-2009, 06:55 PM)Arun Wrote: Pax, brother.

Pax, and pax to all men of good will
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#45
(12-02-2009, 07:05 PM)John C Wrote: 'Do you see a man wise in his own eyes - more hope for a fool than for him' Proverbs 26:12

I didn't say I was wise, I said I was logical.  That's objective.  You don't have to accept it, but it doesn't make it any less true.  Besides spouting protestant end-times predictions, you're also thumping the Bible as your leading argument, another protestant tactic.  The Church doesn't have an opinion on barcodes and their relationships to the end of the world.  So you're free to think what you like.  But it has been shown by several people already how there's nothing to fear with barcodes.  Besides, they're not required for buying and selling in the way most people understand the doomsday prophecies to predict.  They're just a facilitator.  It's not illegal to buy or sell something with no barcode.  It's just a technology to mechanize the purchasing process.  It's a foolproof way of putting an item's information in a database and making it machine-readable in any language.  Sure, companies could make machines that read english characters and numbers, but that would be more complicated and unnecessary.

(12-02-2009, 07:05 PM)John C Wrote: like i said - that's an insult and woeful logic. Go and work out the chances of a coincidence like that. The result will be that chance is completely unreasonable.

Clearly the three like symbols are for orientation.  If they are, in fact, a representation of the number 6, which is not clear (the inventor pointed out they resemble the representation of a 6) then we can assume that 3 identical numerals are desired for the orientation.  With this assumption, and assuming each of the 10 single-digit numerals was equally likely, the probability is 1 in 10, which is not unreasonable.  If it were not necessary that the symbols be identical, then the probability would fall to 1 in 1000, assuming any combination of 3 were equally likely, again not impossible odds, though more intimidating.
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#46
(12-02-2009, 07:05 PM)John C Wrote: Rosarium, now you show urself to be a liar as well - try not not to talk nonsense

I am not going to address or read the rest of the post, but this is unneeded. Please do not make such accusations. I told you what I meant, and that should be enough. If you think you know better my intentions than myself, then why are you even talking to me?

As for barcodes, they do not fulfill the requirements in anyway in the Bible. They are not needed for buying and selling. They only encode data, this data is sometimes necessary but it isn't universal. For example, books have a (now) 13 digit ISBN (number, although the "N" stands for number so "ISBN Number is an example of PIN Number Syndrome), magazines of their own standard codes, like other products. While this numbers are often encoded in barcodes, that is just the format so a scanner can read it. Indeed, non "bar" encodings are often called "barcodes" as well if they are read optically.

The book I mentioned earlier had an ISBN number, that was necessary for some things (not buying and selling though) but it contained no sixes. The number matters, barely, and the code is just a way of expressing that number.

I will not debate this further, as I have stated my case and taken more abuse that I have allocated for this day.
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#47
Irish Cowboy: Just because protestants quote from the bible doesn't mean quoting from the bible is exclusively protestant (is that logical?), i make no apologies for doing so, i wish i knew the bible better so i could do it more, and God willing i will do just that in the future. I don't have time to give a list of bible and Church references that laud the practice; suffice to say they are numerous, with the addition that Jesus dismissed Satan using only scripture in the desert, used it repeatedly in his arguments with the pharisees, and St Paul also encouraged it for refuting error. I would recommend that as many Catholics as possible read their bible often. As far as i know you gain a partial indulgence for reading scripture for 1/2 hour every day.

The enemies of truth don't like it though, and i really don't see how it's my leading argument.

Quote: Besides, they're not required for buying and selling in the way most people understand the doomsday prophecies to predict.  They're just a facilitator.  It's not illegal to buy or sell something with no barcode
After what i've just said to Rosarium about misrepresenting my arguments, i'm not going to dignify that with any further response.



From http://www.av1611.org/666/barcode.html     
(about 60% of the way down the page)
Quote:But. . .
Look again. . . All three guard bars contain the pattern "bar-space-bar" or "101". There is only ONE number, in TWENTY numbers (remember right and left numbers have different patterns) that contains the "101" pattern and that number is the right code SIX. Not the number one, or two, or three, etc. — but ONLY the right code SIX. I do seem to remember something about a mark on the RIGHT hand (Rev. 13:16). 

So it's not 1 in 10, it's 1 in 20 and also pretty strong evidence that u never read what i had originally referenced. That's unfortunate - i referenced it because it is worth reading,  - i would appreciate if u would do that b4 commenting further. And we are working on the assumption that these bars are necessary at all, AND on the assumption that they all had to be the same.

Then u have to factor in that these codes are used almost universally for buying and selling therefore bearing an uncanny resemblance to a certain biblical prophecy - THAT'S where the probability goes off the chart. We're not just talking about a random event like throwing dice or playing slot machines that have no relevance to anything else. The chances that we would get a 666 which so strikingly resembles the prophecy is something else entirely.

A random everyday 666 is ONE coincidence such as someone's name having 3 6s. Someone announcing one day that they are going to introduce a universal method of buying and selling is ONE coincidence (as it partially fulfills the prophecy).

Someone announcing one day that they are going to introduce a universal method of buying and selling that involves a blatant 666 is TWO coincidences - 'the number' and the 'buying and selling'.

When someone decides that we should all have some kind of mark that has 666 in it, for buying and selling, on our right hand or forehead, that will be THREE coincidences (the number, the buying and selling, and the right hand)

So far, we have 'the number' and the 'buying and selling'. To get the probability of two coincidences coinciding, u immediately reach stupidly large numbers.




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#48
(12-02-2009, 08:55 PM)Rosarium Wrote: As for barcodes, they do not fulfill the requirements in anyway in the Bible. They are not needed for buying and selling.

U don't really expect me to believe that u didn't read the post do u Rosarium? Life ain't much fun without a straw man to beat up is it?
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#49
(12-02-2009, 10:13 PM)John C Wrote: U don't really expect me to believe that u didn't read the post do u Rosarium? Life ain't much fun without a straw man to beat up is it?

I read it. It was lots of words. It meant nothing though.

The point is that scripture, which doesn't change, and bar codes do not intersect. No matter what hoops one jumps through, they are not connected. I do not need to address it specifically to discredit it and based on what you've said already, I really don't think I should. I would just get called more things.

Do it your way. Avoid the mark of this beast. You are so smart, a prophet in our time. What other words of wisdom do you have? What does this scripture warning mean then?
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#50
(12-02-2009, 10:18 PM)Rosarium Wrote: The point is that scripture, which doesn't change, and bar codes do not intersect.

Rosarium, that was brilliant, i haven't had a great day, but i laughed quite a lot at that one. If i had the know how, i'd post a cartoon of you absolutely kicking that straw man to within an inch of it's last blade of straw.

I'm sorry if i have unnecessarily offended u

Quote:What does this scripture warning mean then?

There's no way i could answer that with any certainty - maybe someday but not this day. For now i just regard it as a sign, a warning, a wake up call. Like non-Catholics on judgment day when they are asked 'why did u not believe when u saw the incorrupt bodies of the saints, the countless documented miracles, those associated with Our Lady of Guadalupe, Lourdes etc - how could u have been so obtuse? How many signs did i have to give u? Where were the non-Catholic miracles that had u so confused?'

I simply regard it, for now, as a sign, and as something that is good to be aware of.

The following is taken from the previously linked page :    http://www.av1611.org/666/barcode.html
Quote:On Mr. Laurer's web site, he has a "Questions" page, where he answers various questions about the UPC barcode. On the "Questions" page, Mr. Laurer answers the "666" question, as follows:

There is nothing sinister about this nor does it have anything to do with the Bible's "mark of the beast" (The New Testament, The Revelation, Chapter 13, paragraph 18). It is simply a coincidence like the fact that my first, middle, and last name all have 6 letters. There is no connection with an international money code either. (From website)

More coincidences - more signs. What are the chances that the name of the inventor of the barcode 666 also has a 666? In itself, it's not proof but it is evidence. You only need so many coincidences before they constitute proof to any reasonable person.














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