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God and "Allah"
you must spend time reading the Gospels. CHRIST was  very clear. u do not need to have esp as u so stupidly state. if your not going to take Gods word for it. as HE told us in the Gospels then really we are all wasting out time here with you.
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How can they worship the same God if they've already rejected Him?

You can't deny the Trinity and claim to be worshiping the same God.
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so you state, but there are some out there that are not so learned and scholarly in their faith, just like the lot of christians that are just content and they dont really dive in and really look at theology, and would not whole heartedly reject God, they only do so by what one might call vicharious means or associated means.

signed Jeremy L
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(03-22-2010, 08:40 PM)churchesoffortwayne Wrote: so you state, but there are some out there that are not so learned and scholarly in their faith, just like the lot of christians that are just content and they dont really dive in and really look at theology, and would not whole heartedly reject God, they only do so by what one might call vicharious means or associated means.

signed Jeremy L

The Koran denounces and rejects the Trinity.  This isn't some far-flung, deep theological matter but fundamentals of the faith.  Every Catholic knows God is triune and every Muslim believes that's heretical.  It's apples and oranges.
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knowing and acknowleging are two differant things, just like abortion is not allowed no questions asked if you call yourself catholic, yet people of high power in government turn their noses up at it on tv and get away with it, and the bishops sometimes do stuff about it but not always.

So its is not always so black and white, I am saying just because they believe something does not mean that they can not be convinced otherwise, that is why we must enguage them, not turn nose at them and lock them out only to build resentment and want to slaughter them.  Jesus was no wimp but he was full of mercy even being more then just to people, just like the prostitute in the gosple of sunday mass yesterday.  Remember to stand up but be loving as Jesus would.

signed Jeremy Lung keeper of history of the Churches of Fort Wayne
and worker of Nicholas Mariea Publishers.
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(03-22-2010, 08:57 PM)churchesoffortwayne Wrote: knowing and acknowleging are two differant things, just like abortion is not allowed no questions asked if you call yourself catholic, yet people of high power in government turn their noses up at it on tv and get away with it, and the bishops sometimes do stuff about it but not always.

So its is not always so black and white, I am saying just because they believe something does not mean that they can not be convinced otherwise, that is why we must enguage them, not turn nose at them and lock them out only to build resentment and want to slaughter them.  Jesus was no wimp but he was full of mercy even being more then just to people, just like the prostitute in the gosple of sunday mass yesterday.  Remember to stand up but be loving as Jesus would.

signed Jeremy Lung keeper of history of the Churches of Fort Wayne
and worker of Nicholas Mariea Publishers.

You are making two claims here.  The first is vague though I believe I still disagree with it.  Things are really quite black and white on these fundamental issues.  Abortion is antithetical to Catholic moral teaching and therefore any Catholic who believes otherwise puts himself in opposition and outside of the Church at least in regards to that single issue.  Matters of theological doctrine are even more fundamental, such as the triune nature of God.  By definition, what it means to be Catholic is partly to believe in the Trinity just as what it means to be Muslim is to disregard the Trinity.  Again, these are not issues that laymen don't know or acknowledge.  These are universal articles of belief held by two religions which cannot be reconciled.

Secondly, I don't think anyone here wants to slaughter Muslims over having them convert.  Catholics always wish for the conversion of others that they may find the grace of the sacraments and the mercy of Christ.
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has this keeper of whatever even read the Gospels?
jeremy have you red the gospels?
cuz CHRIST says some really important stuff that will help u with this lad.
do your soul a favour and crack one open
go on
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Of course that would be the case in question two, though in the past the crusaders let the spirit of war take them over and they would kill even Christians in the holy land instead of just keeping with their original mission to protect the travelers from the bands of thieves and all other people wishing to do them ill, Islamic people included.

Question one I don't feel like talking about now, I am getting tired of talking about it now. Though the abortion issue I used as an example and I hope that the New Health bill is struck down soon before it kills many innocent and old people with its insensitivity.

signed Jeremy Lung keeper of history in the Churches of Fort Wayne.

and yes I have read the Bible Do not talk as if it was a beer though even though its a funny way to put it.

I am bowing out for the moment.
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What does CHRIST say about those who deny the him?
About those who deny the Holy Ghost?
This is not small patatos lad.
What does CHRIST say? U should really take what God has told us seriously. He did not waste words. he told us for.a reason. I don't know why u will dismiss CHRISTS words so easily. But you shouldn't. Period. So bow out. Pick up the pray to the holy Ghost open the NT and read.
DO IT. Because no matter how many times we run around this u need to hear it from CHRIST.
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(03-22-2010, 09:20 PM)churchesoffortwayne Wrote: Of course that would be the case in question two, though in the past the crusaders let the spirit of war take them over and they would kill even Christians in the holy land instead of just keeping with their original mission to protect the travelers from the bands of thieves and all other people wishing to do them ill, Islamic people included.

Question one I don't feel like talking about now, I am getting tired of talking about it now. Though the abortion issue I used as an example and I hope that the New Health bill is struck down soon before it kills many innocent and old people with its insensitivity.

signed Jeremy Lung keeper of history in the Churches of Fort Wayne.

and yes I have read the Bible Do not talk as if it was a beer though even though its a funny way to put it.

I am bowing out for the moment.

Jeremy, what is your response to these?

2 Matthew 11 Wrote:27 All things are delivered to me by my Father. And no one knoweth the Son, but the Father: neither doth any one know the Father, but the Son, and he to whom it shall please the Son to reveal him.


3 Luke 10 Wrote:22 All things are delivered to me by my Father; and no one knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and to whom the Son will reveal him.

[Of the following quote, first read the entire passage, then read only the words in bold.]

1 John 2 Wrote:21 I have not written to you as to them that know not the truth, but as to them that know it: and that no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father, and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father. He that confesseth the Son, hath the Father also. 24 As for you, let that which you have heard from the beginning, abide in you. If that abide in you, which you have heard from the beginning, you also shall abide in the Son, and in the Father.

The above says that they deny Him. This seems more than a simple improper worship or incomplete knowledge. It says they deny the Father - that is, God. To deny God is to deny Who God is. And to deny 'Who God is' is to deny God's essence. And to deny God's essence is to deny God's existence. [By "His" I mean the true God. Of course they accept the existence of a god, but that god does not exist.]

Again, the pagans who do not know of God could implicitly worship Him because they have not rejected Him or His Son (as it says in Scripture). But explicitly denying God would indicate that one neither believes in Him nor worships Him.

And yes, there most certainly are individual exceptions. But this is a theological debate of the religion of Islam, not a personal judgment of any particular Muslim.
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