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God and "Allah"
#41
Drawn in the sand, Southpaw. drawn in the sand.
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#42
Southpa
Begging thw question is not good enough here. All your questions re the prods mohams and jews are have no sway re the topic of mphams worshiping a satanic lie
Perhaps a thread on the jews and prods and this issue is a good idea.
Just saying
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#43
(11-26-2009, 10:30 AM)SouthpawLink Wrote:
(11-26-2009, 09:56 AM)veritatem_dilexisti Wrote: Muslims do not worship God., as is clear from Holy Scripture.

"He who honoureth not the Son, honoureth not the Father, who hath sent him." — John v, 23

"Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me." — Ibid. xiv, 6

"Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father." — I John ii, 23

"Whosoever revolteth, and continueth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God." — II John i, 9

And, as regards the Jews:

"He that hateth me, hateth my Father also." — John xv, 23

Okay. What about Protestants, then? Do they hate Christ because they distort His teachings? Fr. Muller said that they believe in a different Christ than we do. And, if they hate Christ, do they then not worship the same God as we do?

Where's the line in the sand?

At Christ. Non-Catholic Christians worship God, albeit imperfectly, and not according to His ordinances and will.

That reminds me of the joke about the Catholic priest and the Protestant pastor speaking over the fence on a Sunday morning; as the time for their respective services approaches, the priest says: "Well, I'll be off now. You worship God in your way, and I'll worship Him in His!"
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#44
INPEFESS Wrote:Would you mind reconciling your thoughts with Nostra Aetate and Scripture? I would be interested to hear what you have to say.

No problem. I have to eat some turkey and read and sleep a little before I do so. Keep an eye out for a response tonight.
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#45
(11-26-2009, 11:40 AM)veritatem_dilexisti Wrote:
(11-26-2009, 10:30 AM)SouthpawLink Wrote:
(11-26-2009, 09:56 AM)veritatem_dilexisti Wrote: Muslims do not worship God., as is clear from Holy Scripture.

"He who honoureth not the Son, honoureth not the Father, who hath sent him." — John v, 23

"Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me." — Ibid. xiv, 6

"Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father." — I John ii, 23

"Whosoever revolteth, and continueth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God." — II John i, 9

And, as regards the Jews:

"He that hateth me, hateth my Father also." — John xv, 23

Okay. What about Protestants, then? Do they hate Christ because they distort His teachings? Fr. Muller said that they believe in a different Christ than we do. And, if they hate Christ, do they then not worship the same God as we do?

Where's the line in the sand?

At Christ. Non-Catholic Christians worship God, albeit imperfectly, and not according to His ordinances and will.

That reminds me of the joke about the Catholic priest and the Protestant pastor speaking over the fence on a Sunday morning; as the time for their respective services approaches, the priest says: "Well, I'll be off now. You worship God in your way, and I'll worship Him in His!"

So all non-Christians worship a false god, including the Jews?

My only desire is to hold the traditional, orthodox Catholic teaching on this issue. It would seem, however, that at least one Father (St. John Damascene), two popes (Gregory VII, Pope St. Pius X), and one theologian (Suarez) believe the Muslims to be heretics, not idolaters who worship a false god. Have all of them misunderstood the Scripture passages that have been cited in favor of the position, "Catholics and Muslims do not worship the same God"? Are there any Fathers, Doctors, popes or theologians who have taught in support of the aforesaid position?

Arun,
Thanks!

devotedknuckles,
I'm just trying to understand what it is that makes the Muslims worshippers of a false god, while the Protestants and Jews worship the one true God, even though the first (Muslims) and third (Jews) groups are guilty of the same major misunderstandings concerning the nature of God (i.e. He is one God in three divine Persons; Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God).

If the Jews worship the one true God as we do, but worship Him falsely, then what is it that separates them from the Muslims, such that the one group worships the true God, while the other worships a false god?

It would make more sense to say that all non-Christians worship a false god, but I can't find anything to support that notion. Scripture does not seem to indicate that the Jews no longer believe in or worship (although falsely) the one true God.
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#46
(11-26-2009, 12:10 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote: So all non-Christians worship a false god, including the Jews?

Yes. Res ipsae loquuntur.
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#47
(11-26-2009, 10:30 AM)SouthpawLink Wrote:
(11-26-2009, 09:56 AM)veritatem_dilexisti Wrote: Muslims do not worship God., as is clear from Holy Scripture.

"He who honoureth not the Son, honoureth not the Father, who hath sent him." — John v, 23

"Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me." — Ibid. xiv, 6

"Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father." — I John ii, 23

"Whosoever revolteth, and continueth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God." — II John i, 9

And, as regards the Jews:

"He that hateth me, hateth my Father also." — John xv, 23

Okay. What about Protestants, then? Do they hate Christ because they distort His teachings? Fr. Muller said that they believe in a different Christ than we do. And, if they hate Christ, do they then not worship the same God as we do?

Where's the line in the sand?

Can one believe in the one true God, while at the same time misunderstanding Him in one way or another? Every non-Catholic group is guilty of this in one way or another (even the Eastern Orthodox fail to recognize that God made the Pope the earthly head of His Church). Where do we draw the line?

Do the other Christians worship a false god because they're heretics? Do the Jews and the Muslims worship a false god because they fail to recognize the Holy Trinity? Again, where's the dividing line?

Maybe for all this questions that you raised there is the dogma defined in the Council of Lateran that there is no salvation outside of the Church (Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church).
This is the line.
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#48
You forgot to tell him it's in the sand, DeVille :D
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#49
(11-26-2009, 01:18 PM)DeVille Wrote:
(11-26-2009, 10:30 AM)SouthpawLink Wrote:
(11-26-2009, 09:56 AM)veritatem_dilexisti Wrote: Muslims do not worship God., as is clear from Holy Scripture.

"He who honoureth not the Son, honoureth not the Father, who hath sent him." — John v, 23

"Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me." — Ibid. xiv, 6

"Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father." — I John ii, 23

"Whosoever revolteth, and continueth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God." — II John i, 9

And, as regards the Jews:

"He that hateth me, hateth my Father also." — John xv, 23

Okay. What about Protestants, then? Do they hate Christ because they distort His teachings? Fr. Muller said that they believe in a different Christ than we do. And, if they hate Christ, do they then not worship the same God as we do?

Where's the line in the sand?

Can one believe in the one true God, while at the same time misunderstanding Him in one way or another? Every non-Catholic group is guilty of this in one way or another (even the Eastern Orthodox fail to recognize that God made the Pope the earthly head of His Church). Where do we draw the line?

Do the other Christians worship a false god because they're heretics? Do the Jews and the Muslims worship a false god because they fail to recognize the Holy Trinity? Again, where's the dividing line?

Maybe for all this questions that you raised there is the dogma defined in the Council of Lateran that there is no salvation outside of the Church (Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church).
This is the line.

No, that isn't the question. I know that there's no salvation outside the Catholic Church. I also know that all worship outside the Catholic Church is in some way false. The question is whether or not the Jews and the Muslims recognize the one true God, rather than a false god. There is no question that their worship is false, nor is there a question about how they're saved (i.e. by converting to the Catholic Faith).

Please know that I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing. Rather, I want to know the theological or philosophical basis for saying that the Jews and the Muslims worship a false god, as opposed to their giving false worship to the true God.
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#50
I've talked to some Eastern Orthodox polemicists who claim that Catholics worship a false God because of the Filioque. According to them, the way we describe God is tainted by human error, therefore it is not God.

On the other hand, it is a definitive truth taught by the Church, both by St. Paul in Acts and his epistle to the Romans, and confirmed by the First Vatican Council that God can be known by natural means apart from revelation. The Trinitarian persons of God are generally accepted to be truths that comes from revelation. For example, the pagans St. Paul says were worshipping the God he was preaching to them--and whom he quoted their poets as describing--surely did not have knowledge of the Trinitarian persons of God.

It seems that traditionally, the dividing line is between idolators--that is those who worship beings with a contingent essence (that either exist or do not: devils, statues, mythical beings, etc.)--and those who have at least a natural knowledge of the only God: He is one and non-contingent and on which all else is contingent (Creator rather than creature)--in other words, He is Absolute Being and pure actuality. As St. Thomas says, the best we can do to understand the essence of God is the statement "God is." Furthermore, this essence of God necessitates His existence because His essence is identical to His existence--His essence is existence. His essence is aseity. Newadvent summarizes this distinction between God and things that are not God nicely in this article (the second statement is the key to this discussion):

    * If essence and existence were but one thing, we should be unable to conceive the one without conceiving the other. But we are as a fact able to conceive of essence by itself.
    * If there be no real distinction between the two, then the essence is identical with the existence. But in God alone are these identical.

Here is another good summaryof St. Thomas' proofs of this.

Primary Argument:

        P1. Whatever a thing has besides its essence must be caused by the constituent principles of that essence or by some exterior agent.

        P2. Consider a created thing. It is impossible for a created thing’s existence to be caused by its essential constituent principles because nothing can be the sufficient cause of its own existence if its existence is caused.

        C1. Therefore, a created thing has its existence different from its essence.

        P3. God is the first efficient cause.

        C2. As the first efficient cause, anything God has cannot be due to an exterior agent. C3. God’s essence is identical to his existence.

Secondary Argument:

P1. Existence is that which makes every form or nature actual. Existence is actuality as opposed to potentiality.

P2. There is no potentiality in God; only actuality.

P3. God is his essence.

C1. Since God is actuality his essence is existence.

So, to acknowledge Absolute Being--that is one of only actuality--is to acknowledge the God that exists. While we can conceive of essences that do not actually exist (like that of a unicorn, for example), we cannot do so with this particular essence.  It is impossible to conceive of a being of only actuality, of aseity, that does not exist. In this case, essence necessitates existence.

Therefore, if the religion of Islam asserts God is just that, then they acknowledge the God that exists. From what I can tell, they do--just as the pagans who St. Paul came across did.

In summation: everything has a unique essence (essence however does not necessitate existence in all cases, but one: God). If two people acknowledge the same essence, they are acknowledging the same thing. God's essence is best described as self-existence/aseity--in other wrods, "God is" or as He said, "I AM." Granted, as St. Thomas said, we can understand His essence by the statement "God is" but we really don't understand His essence because we can't really comprehend the subject and predictate of that sentence. Since Muslims, as far as I have read, also acknowledge this as the essence of God, we are speaking of the same Being.

(NB: for those who may draw the wrong conclusion, I do not mean to imply that possessing this knowledge is sufficient on its own for salvation, that the Koran is inspired, or other doctrines of Islam are true.)
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