Poll: Do you prefer the dialogue Mass?
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God and "Allah"
#51
(11-26-2009, 08:27 AM)Rosarium Wrote: I think the Islamic conception of "God" is a perverted and incomplete (in light of what has been revealed) belief in God who revealed Himself to Abraham, to the Jews and then most completely to the Church.

It is hard to say if God is the "same". By definition, there is one all powerful, all knowing God, so anyone who claims to worship one God who created all, then logically, it can be considered to be worshiping the same "God", even if their perception is off.

Well, I see what you're saying, but there are some Satanists (I think that's what they call themselves) who teach (I won't say "believe" because I don't know that they actually do) that Satan is God and that he created the world (which is why there is so much evil and opportunity for sin). Surely, we couldn't say that they worship the One True God in anyway whatsoever. I don't think that the concept of monotheism equates a belief in the True God regardless of how incorrect it may be. It is simply the belief in one god - which could be anything from the Sun as God to everything as God (Pantheism). I mean, I see what you're saying, but I do you understand what I mean?
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#52
(11-25-2009, 08:18 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: I think it's a tricky question.

Absolutely. I did not include any specific distinctions in my question making it fairly vague, which is why it is opinion-based. Based on what you know and believe (factoring in the distinctions you already know, what do you think?)

Quote:The God who revealed himself to Abraham and Moses -- who the Muslims claim is the same God who revealed himself to Muhammad -- IS the one, true God. This is probably what Nostra Aetate means in its ambiguousness, and I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt.

Absolutely. Of course, if in the Old Testament, God spoke to Abraham and disclosed certain truths about Himself, if the Muslims denied those truths (claiming that they're "God" did not possess those characteristics), would they be worshipping the One God? That is, in essence, what they have done.

Quote:"Islam takes pleasure in linking itself" to Abraham, according to NA. But just because we share a common religious ancestry doesn't mean that Muslims' worship and concept of God isn't distorted. It is very distorted. They have no concept of the messianic Suffering Servant, no concept of God as Father, no concept of the Holy Spirit or the Trinity.

Yes, very true. That is more or less what I was looking for.

Quote:So I had to vote no.

Ok, well thank you very much for expressing your opinion.
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#53
(11-25-2009, 06:40 PM)DeVille Wrote: Well, since they don't believe in the Holy Trinity, then it is clear that they don't worship the True God, as we Catholics do.

Well, yes ... maybe. My question asked not whether they believe in the same God, but if they worship the same God. Now, if you want to say that we worship as we pray, and we pray as we believe, then it might be said that my question indirectly asks whether or not they believe in the same God. I do not think they believe in the same God because God has revealed Himself to us. If you reject those revelations and teachings of Himself, how can you believe in the same God? One is not free to believe what he wants about God. If Muslims do not believe that God is of a triune nature when God Himself has declared Himself to be so, I do not see how they can believe in the same God.

I asked this question of a Muslim co-worker with whom I work; he said that Muslims teach that Jesus never said God was triune. This Muslim said that radical followers of Jesus basically made that up. How they know this was made up, but accept other parts of the New Testament as true, I do not know. Why they reject the former teachings about God and accept the latter teachings about "God" I do not know either. Mohammad's teachings were certainly not consistent with the God of Abraham of Whom they say he (Mohammad) was a prophet.
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#54
(11-25-2009, 07:56 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: I voted "no", but it's not that black and white.

I just taught a unit on Muhammad and the Muslims in the High School history course I teach. To be short and sweet: if we believe that the "God" the Arian heretics professed was the true God, then we must accept that the "God" the Mohammedan confess is the true God (worshiped and believed wrongly, but still the same Being). The Muslim religion is a mixture of Arianism and other pagan beliefs.

Well, I don't know that I believe the Arians worshipped the "same God". How can you when you deny what God Himself has taught about Himself? The Church is God's word on earth. It would be as if God Himself walked on earth and then taught 'x' about Himself. One of those listening to God speak would then deny the truth of 'x' claiming that "my God is not defined by 'x'." How, then, could this person believe in the same God when the difference is not merely defined by a perspective, but rather a Truth taught by the very God they claim to worship?

Quote:I voted no, because in my mind, if you reject the Trinity, then while you can have some correct ideas about God, you cannot actually believe in the true God which is defined by the Trinity, but it's really not just "yes" or "no".

Yes, that is very true. My question was more specifically about whether they worship the same God, but worship could be inclusive of belief if you assert that we worship as we pray, we and pray as we believe.
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#55
(11-27-2009, 05:30 PM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(11-25-2009, 06:40 PM)DeVille Wrote: Well, since they don't believe in the Holy Trinity, then it is clear that they don't worship the True God, as we Catholics do.

Well, yes ... maybe. My question asked not whether they believe in the same God, but if they worship the same God. Now, if you want to say that we worship as we pray, and we pray as we believe, then it might be said that my question indirectly asks whether or not they believe in the same God. I do not think they believe in the same God because God has revealed Himself to us. If you reject those revelations and teachings of Himself, how can you believe in the same God? One is not free to believe what he wants about God. If Muslims do not believe that God is of a triune nature when God Himself has declared Himself to be so, I do not see how they can believe in the same God.

I asked this question of a Muslim co-worker with whom I work; he said that Muslims teach that Jesus never said God was triune. This Muslim said that radical followers of Jesus basically made that up. How they know this was made up, but accept other parts of the New Testament as true, I do not know. Why they reject the former teachings about God and accept the latter teachings about "God" I do not know either. Mohammad's teachings were certainly not consistent with the God of Abraham of Whom they say he (Mohammad) was a prophet.

You are right.
Implicitly in my argument there is the Lex orandi, lex credendi reasoning, by which faith precedes worship. Hence the "god" worshiped could not be the same as long as the faith supporting it is different.
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#56
(11-27-2009, 06:36 PM)DeVille Wrote:
(11-27-2009, 05:30 PM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(11-25-2009, 06:40 PM)DeVille Wrote: Well, since they don't believe in the Holy Trinity, then it is clear that they don't worship the True God, as we Catholics do.

Well, yes ... maybe. My question asked not whether they believe in the same God, but if they worship the same God. Now, if you want to say that we worship as we pray, and we pray as we believe, then it might be said that my question indirectly asks whether or not they believe in the same God. I do not think they believe in the same God because God has revealed Himself to us. If you reject those revelations and teachings of Himself, how can you believe in the same God? One is not free to believe what he wants about God. If Muslims do not believe that God is of a triune nature when God Himself has declared Himself to be so, I do not see how they can believe in the same God.

I asked this question of a Muslim co-worker with whom I work; he said that Muslims teach that Jesus never said God was triune. This Muslim said that radical followers of Jesus basically made that up. How they know this was made up, but accept other parts of the New Testament as true, I do not know. Why they reject the former teachings about God and accept the latter teachings about "God" I do not know either. Mohammad's teachings were certainly not consistent with the God of Abraham of Whom they say he (Mohammad) was a prophet.

You are right.
Implicitly in my argument there is the Lex orandi, lex credendi reasoning, by which faith precedes worship. Hence the "god" worshiped could not be the same as long as the faith supporting it is different.

Quite possibly. It would seem logical. I'm sure there is a rebuttal, however.
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#57
(11-27-2009, 05:00 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: Well, I see what you're saying, but there are some Satanists (I think that's what they call themselves) who teach (I won't say "believe" because I don't know that they actually do) that Satan is God and that he created the world (which is why there is so much evil and opportunity for sin). Surely, we couldn't say that they worship the One True God in anyway whatsoever. I don't think that the concept of monotheism equates a belief in the True God regardless of how incorrect it may be. It is simply the belief in one god - which could be anything from the Sun as God to everything as God (Pantheism). I mean, I see what you're saying, but I do you understand what I mean?

Not just monotheism is sufficient. The sun does not have the same essence as God--it is contingent. Pantheism would also not express the essence of God, as St. Thomas answers this objection:

St. Thomas Wrote:Objections:

                 1. If God’s essence and existence are the same, then God has nothing added to him. Therefore, God is being in general and is universally predicated of all things (heresy of pantheism).

                    Reply: God is existence to its fullest and simplest extent. All other beings participate in his existence on a contingency and thus do not posses the nature of God. Therefore, no being can be said to be a god or share a part in godhead since they exist solely on a contingency. God’s essence precludes any addition absolutely. Prime matter (of which all material things are composed) has a nature in which nothing is required to be added to it: but not absolutely. Thus prime matter is predicated of all material things, but God is not.

The Satanist example is an interesting one, but a thing's essence is not determined by the name humans give it. I would argue that if they posited the proper essence of God, that is who they would acknowledge and who they would be blaspheming by attributing to Him an evil nature. However, I think they generally assert the essence of the actual Satan.

The idea of whether the Muslims worship God is also interesting. I would say Christians and Muslims may worship the same God, but the Catholic Church offers Him acceptable worship and Muslims generally do not because they do not do so in Truth and Spirit.
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#58
I came in late here...which means that I've had the benefit of reading some other very good observations.
  My twopence worth:
  I voted no before I read the replies....I've long held the opinion that any god that is not triune is some Satan pretending to be God.....Muslims,Jews, snake-worshippers, voodoo, etc.  The Muslims annually trample each other to death in a frenzy to cast stones at The Three Pillars that, I'm led to believe, represent the Trinity of the despised Christians.

As for Nostra Aetate....to my mind it's nothing but another woolly-headed syncretism of the Modernist God - haters.
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#59
+1
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#60
I don't understand.
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