911 Truther
#11
Quote: There is one problem, one big problem. Despite all the questions, we all know that the two buildings (and then some) were destroyed. That was on film and had many eye witnesses. Thousands of people entered the WTC daily, up until they were destroyed. So, how were they destroyed? 
I already said my belief is that the official story is correct.  Jet fuel melted the steel and it pancaked.  I don't believe the Mossad or CIA planted bombs or directed the attack.

My belief in summary:
1.  The attack was made by Muslims from Saudi.
2.  Mossad found out about it.
3.  Mossad wanted to "add" a few truck bombs linked to Palestinians.

Quote: How can we corroborate that any of those points are true and not pulled out of a Truther's bum?  Assuming it's true, who leaked the "sealed report" and how did they get access to it? 
This was reported on Fox News.  I'll link the YouTube video.

Quote: Someone flew down in a spaceship and told me that uncited and unreliable information is not useful.
Referring to the truck bomb on the GW bridge, this was reported on the major news shows.  I'll link the YouTube video.

Maybe I'm what you call a "modified" truther, since my main claim is that the Mossad knew, and second they were trying to "augment" it to frame the Palestinians.






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#12
So my 1400F is where I'm wrong and if it burns above 2400f it will melt. The Hard turned steel was AISI 41oo series with molybdenum chrome, and the poppet was H13 tool steel for high temperature service usually used for "hot forming" steel shapes. thanks
tim 
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#13


From 1:06 to 1:25.

Note : "I can not tell you about evidence that has been gathered against the Israelis, it's classified."

Read betwee the lines, they knew.

I think there is a 90% chance Israel knew about 9-11 before the attack.  I think there is a 50% chance they "augmented" the attack to tie in the Palestinians.
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#14


Bomb full of explosives.  What happened to the men arrested?  Sitting back in Tel Aviv, I would wager.
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#15
I found an article at popular mechanics for the temperature of the Jet fuel burn. Jet fuel burns at less than 1500F. The steel never melted, firemen have never seen melted steel in fires. The article explains the steel lost it's strength and failed. This doesn't make sense either.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technolo...tml?page=4
tim
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#16
My experience was with furnaces.  In a hydrogen plant, the tubes were running at 1650F surface temperature (high allow with niobium).  The tube hangers were 1800F.  So the flame temperature of our burners were over 2000F.  The main component in the fuel was methane.

Jet fuel has a lot more energy than methane.  I guess if you lit a pool of jet fuel, it would burn slow and possible cooler.  However, fired from a burner, I will guess you would get to 2400F.  I'll have to research this now. 

However, I have witnessed the results of a jet fuel fire (no burner).  I-beams and pipe were twisted.  So they definitely went over the creep temperature, which would be around 1100F.

By the way, I would expect conditions at the 70th floor to approach a burner, since the wind is fierce.
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#17
From Wikipedia:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combustion

"Most commonly, the adiabatic combustion temperatures for coals are around 2,200 °C (3,992 °F) (for inlet air and fuel at ambient temperatures and for λ = 1.0), around 2,150 °C (3,902 °F) for oil and 2,000 °C (3,632 °F) for natural gas."

Jet fuel would approach "oil".  This is adiabatic flame temperature, so this is perfect conditions with no heat loss.  I think a jet fuel fire going over 2000F is very plausible.  So the I-beams could easily get above creep temperature. 

edit:  By the way, 3900F sounds high to me.  I would have guessed 2700F for adiabatic, with actual at 2400F.  Learn something everyday.
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#18
James Jet fuel is kerosene, I used to use kerosene as a coolant for machining brass in the old days. Since you mentioned Methane I believe is used for fighter planes. Which may be what you are thinking about.

When steel is heat treated it is at about 1550F then quenched at 300-500F in oil, then tempered to draw brittleness and remove the retained austenite, and then cryogenicaly aged to improve hardness.

The Aluminum can burn but not at the temperature. Off the top of my head the C1026 in I beams is about 110 ksi, granted the steel which was heated was weakened but after a few floors the steel would still be strong, resulting in only part of the building coming down.

I'm having a hard time seeing the type so tata,

tim
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#19
oops  http://www.popularmechanics.com/technolo...tml?page=4
tim
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#20
Fighters burn JP-8, which is just kerosene with a tight spec.

You can heat kero to around 650F before it will ignite.  That is the "auto ignition" temperature.  Coal has a very low a.i. temperature, and a pile of coal will catch fire just sitting there.  However coal burns very hot, and can easily melt steel.

Flame temperature has nothing to do with energy or auto ignition temperature.  For example, hydrogen has a very high flame temperature, but it doesn't have a lot of energy since it is so light.  Pound for pound it is energetic, but by volume, it is very low energy.
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