Cardinal says gays can't go to heaven
#11
(12-03-2009, 10:26 AM)glgas Wrote:
(12-03-2009, 10:24 AM)Clare Wrote: All I said was the idea that, re homosexuality, "any form of discrimination is unjustifiable" is rubbish. Of course discrimination can be justified. The Church discriminates.

We are not angels, so we can comprehend only detailed information. How the Church discriminates?

Homosexual men are not to be ordained, for a start. The Church does not approve of homosexuals adopting children. Or marrying.

Those are all forms of discrimination, and perfectly justifiable.
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#12
That discrimination you speak of is only on the eyes of the secular world. They are actually charitable acts helping them not to fall farther from God's Grace, in their dis-ordered lives, by providing them near occasions of sin. Some will struggle their entire lives, but succeed in the end, and others  will have  immediate conversion, both are God's Grace. Those who do not and we do not know who they will be, are judged by the Lion of Judah. Lord have mercy on all of us.
tim
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#13
(12-03-2009, 12:29 PM)timoose Wrote: That discrimination you speak of is only on the eyes of the secular world. They are actually charitable acts helping them not to fall farther from God's Grace, in their dis-ordered lives, by providing them near occasions of sin...

The point is that, although discrimination may be "a bad thing" in the eyes of the world, it is not always, objectively. As you point out, timoose, in this case it is charitable.

Discrimination is not per se a bad thing, and I am merely taking issue with the cardinal's view that "any form" of discrimination against homosexuals cannot be justified. It can.

Perhaps he just used the wrong word. If he had said "persecution" instead of "discrimination" I wouldn't be going on and on about it!

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#14
In July 1992, the Vatican issued a proclamation authorised by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger and by Pope John Paul II, entitled "Some Considerations Concerning the Catholic Response to Legislative Proposals on the Non-Discrimination of Homosexual Persons".

Rejecting the concept of homosexual "human rights", it asserts there is "no right" to homosexuality; adding that the civil liberties of lesbians and gay men can be "legitimately limited for objectively disordered external conduct".

"Sexual orientation" does not constitute a quality comparable to race, ethnic background, etc. in respect to non-discrimination. Unlike these, homosexual orientation is an objective disorder."

While condemning "unjust" discrimination, the Vatican document says that some forms of antigay discrimination are "not unjust" and may even be "obligatory": especially with regard to "the consignment of children to adoption or foster care, in employment of teachers or coaches, and in military recruitment".
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#15
(12-03-2009, 02:33 PM)SaintRafael Wrote: Rejecting the concept of homosexual "human rights", it asserts there is "no right" to homosexuality; adding that the civil liberties of lesbians and gay men can be "legitimately limited for objectively disordered external conduct".

On the same way any extramarital sex is sin. consequently no one has right to extramarital sex.  So is the oral sex, anal sex, masturbation. So is the divorce.

In the time of my grandfather all this were considered legally wrong, the homosexuality until my childhood.

We should know, that wrong is wrong, but here is the limit. To single out one kind of wrong what we are not engaged in, and say that this is evil the rest is negotiable,  is intrinsically wrong,. because covers the other problems.

It would be desiderable, and hopefully this is reachable goal that any kind of sex in public should be forbidden.
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#16
It's charity to give it to them straight up.
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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#17
(12-03-2009, 02:50 PM)glgas Wrote: To single out one kind of wrong what we are not engaged in, and say that this is evil the rest is negotiable,  is intrinsically wrong,...

???

All sins are not equal. Some are mortal, some are venial, four cry to Heaven for vengeance. Discriminating between the kinds of sins is not intrinsically wrong!
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#18
Told ya so:
http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/inde...991.0.html
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#19
(12-03-2009, 06:34 AM)Clare Wrote: "Homosexuality is therefore a sin, but this does not justify any form of discrimination..," the cardinal said.

Well, that's rubbish. No form of discrimination at all??? Adoption? Marriage?
Not allowing homosexuals to marry or adopt is not discrimination. It's just the way things are. You may as well claim I'm being discriminated against because I can't have a baby.

Starting from the beginning:
Quote: Discrimination

–noun
1. an act or instance of discriminating.
2. treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit: racial and religious intolerance and discrimination.
3. the power of making fine distinctions; discriminating judgment: She chose the colors with great discrimination.
4. Archaic. something that serves to differentiate.

Origin:
1640–50; < L discrimination- (s. of discriminatio) a distinguishing. See discriminate, -ion
Look closely at number 2. "treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit "

Merit. Hmmm....
Quote:the inherent rights and wrongs of a matter, as a lawsuit, unobscured by procedural details, technicalities, personal feelings, etc
So distilled down, we have "treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on the inherent rights and wrongs of a matter."

Marriage is for creating children. Gays cannot mate, try though they may. It can't happen. Forbidding them from doing that which they can not do is not discrimination. Adoption? Pretty much the same thing. God designed things so it takes a man and a woman to make a baby. Why? Because it takes one of each to raise it properly! One of each sex... nope, Adam and Steve don't qualify. Those are the inherent rights and wrongs of it. 

Ordination? I'm sure there have been plenty of closeted homosexuals ordained over the centuries. Since they live celibate lives, who cares? Everyone has quirks; there hasn't been a perfect human in a few millenia.  Well, the problem is the ones ranting and raving about it are not closeted. They don't struggle with their problem, they revel in it. And it's wrong! It's pretty explicit in the Bible that sodomites will not see the Kingdom of Heaven! You want someone who can't find his way to try and guide others there? That doesn't work with the nearest coffeeshop anymore than it will with Heaven.

/end rant
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#20
Dang does this mean the USCCB cant go to heaven?
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