Is It Sinful to Take a Minimalist View of Faith?
#11
(12-13-2009, 06:27 PM)nsper7 Wrote: But how can I love Christ when there is a gun to my hide and the command: follow the rules or burn in Hell.
Easy.  Stockholm syndrome.

But seriously, you need to get that idea out of your head.  How can you parade around an image of the Divine Mercy on this forum and have a view of such a merciless God?
He loves you, He is not going to punish you.  Sinners punish themselves.  Cling to Him and you will not go wrong.
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#12
Quote:Listen, you are of the race of men - you were born with Original Sin and, in that state, your default end would be Hell.  That's the fault of men, not of Christ.

Is it my fault Adam sinned? Obviously, as a Catholic, I accept the dogma/doctrine of Original Sin. I maybe an asshole and a minimalist sometimes, but I am not a heretic.

Quote:Christ is lovingly offering to save you.  It's not God's fault if you sin and therefore go to Hell.  It's your own.  Christ loves you so much that he split every drop of His Blood and died wretchedly on a cross to open to you the possibility of Heaven.  Show a little gratitude, maybe?

But the fact is that there is the fear of Hell in there and Jesus puts it pretty plainly that failure to do certain things, or to not do certain things, leads to Hell.

Quote:Easy.  Stockholm syndrome.

So you're saying the secret to faith is psychological disorder (Stockholm syndrome strikes as a bizarre form of codependency).

Quote:But seriously, you need to get that idea out of your head.  How can you parade around an image of the Divine Mercy on this forum and have a view of such a merciless God?
He loves you, He is not going to punish you.  Sinners punish themselves.  Cling to Him and you will not go wrong.

Unless someone is a major masochist (another psychological disorder) or otherwise insane, what person would torment themselves for all eternity (whether by fire or some other implement)?
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#13
(12-13-2009, 06:58 PM)nsper7 Wrote: But the fact is that there is the fear of Hell in there and Jesus puts it pretty plainly that failure to do certain things, or to not do certain things, leads to Hell.
Then don't do those things. However, the important thing (for you) is to want to do the things we are supposed to do. It isn't arbitrary. We get something out of it.

Quote:Unless someone is a major masochist (another psychological disorder) or otherwise insane, what person would torment themselves for all eternity (whether by fire or some other implement)?
It is the nature of humanity. How many humans would do something which would cause intense pain later? How many people would do something without considering its lasting effects? How many people would do something they know is wrong? The answer: most people. That people would forsake eternal life for a few moments on earth is no surprise. It is illogical, but it is no surprise.
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#14
(12-13-2009, 06:50 PM)Louis_Martin Wrote:
(12-13-2009, 06:27 PM)nsper7 Wrote: But how can I love Christ when there is a gun to my hide and the command: follow the rules or burn in Hell.
Easy.  Stockholm syndrome.

But seriously, you need to get that idea out of your head.  How can you parade around an image of the Divine Mercy on this forum and have a view of such a merciless God?
He loves you, He is not going to punish you.  Sinners punish themselves.  Cling to Him and you will not go wrong.

Exactly. We all have free will. In essence, Hell is the logical result of our own choices. We can choose to follow God, or we can choose to reject him. There is no gun to our heads forcing us to sin. God wants us to be in heaven with him. Jesus suffered unspeakable torment, all because of our sins.

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#15
The motivation of our Faith should be one of love not fear.
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#16
(12-13-2009, 06:12 PM)nsper7 Wrote: is it sinful for a Catholic to take a minimalist view of Faith (by this I mean a view geared towards obeying the rules and avoiding Hell...the minimum)?

With your Prot background, you must have read the Bible a lot. How could you forget
Quote: Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind.This is the greatest and the first commandment.

Note it doesn't say "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God enough to get by."
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#17
Quote:Note it doesn't say "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God enough to get by."

So you're saying if we don't love Him with all our heart, mind and soul, then He sends us to Hell for all eternity to suffer? Not even the worst dictators on Earth were that harsh...
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#18
I'm not going to beat around the bush, which is mostly what has been done here. Yes, it is sinful. That's because there's no such thing. You are either all in, or you are all out. St John tells us in the Apocalypse that the lukewarm burn in hell.

Let's understand one thing above all else. Hell is not simply a punishment for our sins, although this is the simplest way for men to understand it. Rather, it is the place of our choosing. If we desire God and choose to love Him, then despite all of the other circumstances of our lives, we will spend our eternity with God, our desire. If we desire something other than God, we shall have that for all eternity instead. What we must understand is that possessing this desire fully means relinquishing an eternity with Love Himself.

You must abandon yourself and your own will fully, or at least offer yourself up to God to make this attempt, if we are to hope for eternal life. We do so out of love. Is there a less perfect version of this, based on fear of hell? Yes, of course. This is a natural inclination and predisposition placed in our souls by God. It is to lead us to that next phase of actually loving Him and embracing Him for what He is, and not what the lack of Him might mean.

The surest means of emptying ourselves of our own will is to follow the example of the only creature that has done this perfectly--the Blessed Virgin Mary. She can free you from your lukewarmness and set you on the proper path to loving Our Lord. But to willingly persist in the path of neither here nor there will get you nowhere but there, and there is hell.
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#19
Nsper
Do ur soul a favor and really pray the stations!!!!
Its not about fear its about God offering us his only son ti be tortured and nailed to a cross!!
For us!!
For ur sins. For ur sins!
This is advent pls emerse yourself in this season. The comming of the messiah!!
No small bones lad!!
Be gratefull to CHRIST for his mercy for his love. Beg him to forgive u ur selfish egotistical outlook on the faith
With love
Sip
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#20
(12-13-2009, 07:32 PM)actiofidei Wrote: I'm not going to beat around the bush, which is mostly what has been done here. Yes, it is sinful. That's because there's no such thing. You are either all in, or you are all out. St John tells us in the Apocalypse that the lukewarm burn in hell.

Let's understand one thing above all else. Hell is not simply a punishment for our sins, although this is the simplest way for men to understand it. Rather, it is the place of our choosing. If we desire God and choose to love Him, then despite all of the other circumstances of our lives, we will spend our eternity with God, our desire. If we desire something other than God, we shall have that for all eternity instead. What we must understand is that possessing this desire fully means relinquishing an eternity with Love Himself.

You must abandon yourself and your own will fully, or at least offer yourself up to God to make this attempt, if we are to hope for eternal life. We do so out of love. Is there a less perfect version of this, based on fear of hell? Yes, of course. This is a naturally inclination and predisposition placed in our souls by God. It is to lead us to that next phase of actually loving Him and embracing Him for what He is, and not what the lack of Him might mean.

The surest means of emptying ourselves of our own will is to follow the example of the only creature that has done this perfectly--the Blessed Virgin Mary. She can free you from your lukewarmness and set you on the proper path to loving Our Lord. But to willingly persist in the path of neither here nor there will get you nowhere but there, and there is hell.

The Church separates the precepts (keep the commandments as Jesus told the rich young man who asked what is necessary to inherit eternal life) from the evangelical counsels (sell all you own, give to the poor and follow Me, etc. if "thou wilt be perfect"). The Church requires that a person obey the precepts in order to be Saved, but not the evangelical counsels.
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