Is It Sinful to Take a Minimalist View of Faith?
#31
(12-13-2009, 07:51 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
Quote:Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For he that will save his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for my sake, shall find it. Matthew, XVI xxiv,xxv.

And how does the Church interpret this? Don't play Protestant on me and start with the self-interpretation of Scripture? What is Church doctrine on this matter?

Don't play Protestant on you? You should really curb hostility toward people you don't know and who are responding to the questions you posed to them. This passage is repeatedly interpreted by Holy Mother Church by numerous of her Saints and Fathers. Notable among them is St John of the Cross in his Ascent of Mount Carmel. It means just what it says. Abandon your life; give it up to Christ if you desire to save it for eternity. Or try to keep it your own, and see what good comes of it.

The fact that you are even asking this question and posing it to the public is a sign that you have some inner uncertainty and uneasiness. It is a great gift of grace given you by God. You would do well, rather than to fight this inclination, to listen with openness to what is being shared here. Our Lord is offering you the opportunity to grow in much love and sanctity, and because He loves you immensely. Go to the Blessed Virgin and you will find Christ's love more fully. Please be assured of my prayers.
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#32
(12-13-2009, 07:56 PM)nsper7 Wrote: The Church acknowledges the distinction between Christ's precepts and His counsels. According to the Church, we are Saved by keeping His precepts.

Yes but it is not enough just to keep His precepts if we want to be perfect. All writers of the interior life indicate that we must at least try to practice the spirit of the counsels.

I have a question: Do you believe that we must grown in holiness?
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#33
(12-13-2009, 07:32 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
Quote:Note it doesn't say "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God enough to get by."

So you're saying if we don't love Him with all our heart, mind and soul, then He sends us to Hell for all eternity to suffer? Not even the worst dictators on Earth were that harsh...

No, He is saying it as it is.

Does a parent which says to a child the stove burns hate the child? God created man, man sinned, man is on a road to damnation. God is doing all He can to salvage our fallen wills. His warnings are not out of spite, but out of love.
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#34
I don't want to love Christ or to know Him, but to avoid Hell. He placed that threat there and that is what I responded to. Do we need detachment from things in order to be Saved? What should be motivation? You can say "love of God" all damn day long,. but it is fear of Hell at the bottom of it all.

Why should I care about Him beyond how can I avoid Hell? Give me one reason, other than utter self-interest, why I should care at all about God? He threatens me with Hell, how should I respond?

Quote:It means just what it says. Abandon your life; give it up to Christ if you desire to save it for eternity.

THat's the honesty isn't it? Follow or burn in Hell for all eternity! Yes, now we are down to the truth of the matter. How can I love Him under that circumstance? If any human being placed me in that quandary, I would probably do what they say, but I would hate them with every ounce of my being and I would just wait for them to turn their back on me or for their gun-hand to waiver...

Quote:Yes but it is not enough just to keep His precepts if we want to be perfect. All writers of the interior life indicate that we must at least try to practice the spirit of the counsels.

Why should I want to be perfect? The Church (even Christ Himself) says we must keep the precepts in order to be Saved. The fact that Jesus differentiates between 'inheriting eternal life' and 'perfection' in His discourse with the rich young man indicate these separate issues.
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#35
Why does the Church canonize certain individuals?
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#36
(12-13-2009, 08:06 PM)nsper7 Wrote: I don't want to love Christ or to know Him, but to avoid Hell. He placed that threat there and that is what I responded to. Do we need detachment from things in order to be Saved? What should be motivation? You can say "love of God" all damn day long,. but it is fear of Hell at the bottom of it all.

Why should I care about Him beyond how can I avoid Hell? Give me one reason, other than utter self-interest, why I should care at all about God? He threatens me with Hell, how should I respond?
Look at it from God's point of view.

You are looking at from a mortal's eyes. Do not forget your immortality. Forget about Hell.

Why should God care about you?
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#37
(12-13-2009, 08:08 PM)Rosarium Wrote:
(12-13-2009, 08:06 PM)nsper7 Wrote: I don't want to love Christ or to know Him, but to avoid Hell. He placed that threat there and that is what I responded to. Do we need detachment from things in order to be Saved? What should be motivation? You can say "love of God" all damn day long,. but it is fear of Hell at the bottom of it all.

Why should I care about Him beyond how can I avoid Hell? Give me one reason, other than utter self-interest, why I should care at all about God? He threatens me with Hell, how should I respond?
Look at it from God's point of view.

You are looking at from a mortal's eyes. Do not forget your immortality. Forget about Hell.

Why should God care about you?

That's a good question and one which I cannot answer.
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#38
(12-13-2009, 08:06 PM)nsper7 Wrote: I don't want to love Christ or to know Him, but to avoid Hell. He placed that threat there and that is what I responded to. Do we need detachment from things in order to be Saved? What should be motivation? You can say "love of God" all damn day long,. but it is fear of Hell at the bottom of it all.
Fear of Hell and God's punishment is an excellent way to start on the path, but it is not the path.  You responded to a threat, perhaps, but there is more needed.  You must love God.  You must desire Him alone.  Yes, detachment is necessary: we cannot love anything more than God.  The question comes down to this:
Are you willing to lose everything for Christ?  If He asked you to give everything up, would you?  What is the very center and meaning of your life?  If it's anything but God, you are headed in the wrong direction.
Why worry about fear of Hell? Cling to God! Stop beating yourself up, keep your eyes on Christ and run the race!  He is the prize at the end.  If you don't love Him, then you don't really want to be with Him forever.  If you don't want to be with Him forever, you are rejecting Him.  It's that simple.  If you reject Him, you reject all He has made.  You choose darkness and fear over Him.  You choose His absence.
So Hell comes from not loving God, and loving God is simple, really.  It's just difficult sometimes.  Push ahead!  Keep running towards Him!
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#39
I'm not sure but I would think that wanting to do just the minimum is an attitude that will most likely not lead to heaven.
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#40
(12-13-2009, 08:09 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
(12-13-2009, 08:08 PM)Rosarium Wrote:
(12-13-2009, 08:06 PM)nsper7 Wrote: I don't want to love Christ or to know Him, but to avoid Hell. He placed that threat there and that is what I responded to. Do we need detachment from things in order to be Saved? What should be motivation? You can say "love of God" all damn day long,. but it is fear of Hell at the bottom of it all.

Why should I care about Him beyond how can I avoid Hell? Give me one reason, other than utter self-interest, why I should care at all about God? He threatens me with Hell, how should I respond?
Look at it from God's point of view.

You are looking at from a mortal's eyes. Do not forget your immortality. Forget about Hell.

Why should God care about you?

That's a good question and one which I cannot answer.

I can answer it.

God created a perfect world for us. Humanity was sinless. All it needed was one test. One exercise of free will. It is easy for that which is created perfect to remain perfect if they make no choices. This test, due to the influence of another creature (Satan), was failed. Instead of creation progression in perfect, it would progress as it was originally planned in a fallen state, subject to decay and pain. Humanity became forgetful, prideful and selfish even though Adam and Eve had repented. The perfect was lost. God could have just forgotten His failed creation then, let it run its course into oblivion (this world will end naturally, due to its current state), but instead He worked to help us. We all still have that choice to make, but we have an entire lifetime to make it. The bare minimum to be saved is a conversion to God and contrition for all sins before death.  That is what what life is. Life is a test. It is very temporary. Look back on your childhood. Now, imagine looking back on your earthly life after your earthly death.

It is still like it is when we were created; God still wants His creation to choose Him and be complete in His kingdom and He has given us a lot to help us. If we had our original state, we'd live for a very long time away from God without any help, and probably assaulted by demons at every turn. A single demon could destroy all material in this universe if God did not restrain them. What you see as drab everyday life is only because of God's will.

You can choose your path; God or yourself. Whatever you choose, you will be with forever.
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