Is It Sinful to Take a Minimalist View of Faith?
#41
And consider what makes Hell terrible; Hell is simply the absence of God. If you're frightened at the thought of not being with God, then there must be something about God you want. So ask yourself what is it about God that makes you want to be in his presence? This might be helpful.
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#42
(12-13-2009, 08:06 PM)nsper7 Wrote: I don't want to love Christ or to know Him, but to avoid Hell. He placed that threat there and that is what I responded to. Do we need detachment from things in order to be Saved? What should be motivation? You can say "love of God" all damn day long,. but it is fear of Hell at the bottom of it all.

Why should I care about Him beyond how can I avoid Hell? Give me one reason, other than utter self-interest, why I should care at all about God? He threatens me with Hell, how should I respond?

Quote:It means just what it says. Abandon your life; give it up to Christ if you desire to save it for eternity.

THat's the honesty isn't it? Follow or burn in Hell for all eternity! Yes, now we are down to the truth of the matter. How can I love Him under that circumstance? If any human being placed me in that quandary, I would probably do what they say, but I would hate them with every ounce of my being and I would just wait for them to turn their back on me or for their gun-hand to waiver...

Quote:Yes but it is not enough just to keep His precepts if we want to be perfect. All writers of the interior life indicate that we must at least try to practice the spirit of the counsels.

Why should I want to be perfect? The Church (even Christ Himself) says we must keep the precepts in order to be Saved. The fact that Jesus differentiates between 'inheriting eternal life' and 'perfection' in His discourse with the rich young man indicate these separate issues.
When you're this deep in a hole, you can stop shovelling.

Or keep on digging yourself in deeper.

You can choose to run after the good or choose to run away from the bad. I go to work to earn money not out of fear of not having enough, being unable to pay bills, getting tossed out of my house, starving, etc. but to earn money to buy things I want. Travel, tools, model trains, brand-name cigars - things that make me happy.

People that "lose their life to Jesus" also tend to be happy. People like them. They demonstrate the Fruits of The Spirit: From the Catechism
Quote:736 By this power of the Spirit, God's children can bear much fruit. He who has grafted us onto the true vine will make us bear "the fruit of the Spirit: . . . love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control." "We live by the Spirit"; the more we renounce ourselves, the more we "walk by the Spirit."
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#43
(12-13-2009, 08:06 PM)nsper7 Wrote: I don't want to love Christ or to know Him, but to avoid Hell. He placed that threat there and that is what I responded to. Do we need detachment from things in order to be Saved? What should be motivation? You can say "love of God" all damn day long,. but it is fear of Hell at the bottom of it all.

Why should I care about Him beyond how can I avoid Hell? Give me one reason, other than utter self-interest, why I should care at all about God? He threatens me with Hell, how should I respond?
SERIOUSLY?
And you wonder why i say you REALLY shouldnt be a priest...?
There is consequences for every action. the consequence for bad actions, in the end is hell. Just like how the consequences for bad actions on earth is usually jail or an ass kicking.
However, their is rewards. Heaven being a big one. Jesus is our all mighty Father. Do your parents not love you, because you get a smack when your being a brat? Of course they do, but they love you enough to punish you to teach you about consequence. Hell is just a consequence. You cant throw yourself in Hell accidentally. Just love Him...He has given us so much, thats why you should love Him. He gave you life, and and the means to make it a good one, and to do good in His name. He wants you to love Him, and and make teh lives of those around you better, inHis name. How is hat a "vengeful, hateful" God.

I heard once, that peoples relationship with God, tends to mirror that with their fathers. Its very true, I totally thought the same way as you for a very long time. I felt like Jesus was just this big mean guy that toyed with us. It makes no sense. He wants whats best, seriously, read more, and get to now Him. you cant love what you dont know....


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#44
(12-13-2009, 08:06 PM)nsper7 Wrote: I don't want to love Christ or to know Him, but to avoid Hell. He placed that threat there and that is what I responded to. ...
Why should I care about Him beyond how can I avoid Hell? Give me one reason, other than utter self-interest, why I should care at all about God? He threatens me with Hell, how should I respond?

...

He didn't place a threat. God doesn't threaten us with Hell.

Hell is a choice. Actions taken by us on earth determine if we go to Hell. We are responsible for our actions as we have free will.

If we choose to make bad choices, commit mortal sin, and reject God, then we end up in Hell. How can we expect to go to Heaven after we have rejected God during our temporal life?

There is no threat. By choosing to love, know, and serve God, then we go to Heaven. We choose not to, we go to Hell. God put forth his precepts to guide us and tell us how to live a just and good life. He wants us to be in Heaven with Him. Jesus died on the cross for our sins so that we might be reunited with him after our demise. He doesn't threaten us with Hell at all. It is just the logical progression of earthly choices done with free will.

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#45
[Image: 040219_crucifixion_hmed_2p.hlarge.jpg]

You don't understand why you should love God?
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#46
(12-13-2009, 08:20 PM)Anastasia Wrote: And consider what makes Hell terrible; Hell is simply the absence of God. If you're frightened at the thought of not being with God, then there must be something about God you want. So ask yourself what is it about God that makes you want to be in his presence? This might be helpful.

What scares me about Hell is the thought of torment, not being away from God. Remember, Hell is more than the absence of God, it is the presence of horrendous torment of which we cannot conceive. I think only a loon would want to suffer eternal torment.

Quote:Are you willing to lose everything for Christ?  If He asked you to give everything up, would you?

Why should I be willing to? Because of the threat of Hell. Because that is what would motivate me to do that, plain and simple. I would despise Him, but I would obey. And again, doesn't the Church teach that the evangelical counsels (Christ's requirements to the rich young man to be "perfect") are not required for Salvation?

Quote:People that "lose their life to Jesus" also tend to be happy. People like them. They demonstrate the Fruits of The Spirit: From the Catechism

Well then, most of the people here have definitely failed in that regard. I am not just being crass or silly. There seems to be very little love, peace, kindness and gentleness here.
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#47
So what do you want?

What is your purpose?
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#48
(12-13-2009, 08:06 PM)nsper7 Wrote: I don't want to love Christ or to know Him, but to avoid Hell. He placed that threat there and that is what I responded to. Do we need detachment from things in order to be Saved? What should be motivation? You can say "love of God" all damn day long,. but it is fear of Hell at the bottom of it all.

Why should I care about Him beyond how can I avoid Hell? Give me one reason, other than utter self-interest, why I should care at all about God? He threatens me with Hell, how should I respond?

Love strives for perfection and little by little lets go of fear. Ironically, an all-purpose fear of hell could actually put souls there because when they see God (who is Love itself), they won't embrace him. . By your own admission you said you don't want to know him or love him. That, by its very definition, is hell.

Christ deserves your best. He deserves my best. He has a vision of what we can become with the help of his grace and it is his will to perfect us. Our ultimate desire is to be united with Christ forever. Our hearts should be moving toward HIM - and if we're not moving toward HIM then we're going in the opposite direction, if you get my drift. Truly, you need to humble yourself and beg God to give you the grace to love him because he loves you, and because you know it's right.

- Lisa
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#49
Perhaps comparing God to the man with a gun at your head is unfair because it ignores Original Sin. How does this comparison suit you:

A man is in the hospital dying slowly and tortuously from a horrible poison. A doctor enters with a syringe full of the antidote and says, "Do as I say or I'll just stand here and watch you suffer in agony. I have the antidote and can administer it immediately, but only if you do what I tell you. Otherwise, I'm just going to sit here and watch you suffer."
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#50
(12-13-2009, 10:27 PM)nsper7 Wrote: Perhaps comparing God to the man with a gun at your head is unfair because it ignores Original Sin. How does this comparison suit you:

A man is in the hospital dying slowly and tortuously from a horrible poison. A doctor enters with a syringe full of the antidote and says, "Do as I say or I'll just stand here and watch you suffer in agony. I have the antidote and can administer it immediately, but only if you do what I tell you. Otherwise, I'm just going to sit here and watch you suffer."

Except that God is working at every moment to give us the antidote and the only reason we don't get it is because we keep kick and screaming to keep Him away.
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