Is It Sinful to Take a Minimalist View of Faith?
#51
Quote:By your own admission you said you don't want to know him or love him. That, by its very definition, is hell.

Hell minus the horrendous torment, being roasted over and over again, tortured in the most heinous ways possible, suffering forever.
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#52
(12-13-2009, 10:27 PM)nsper7 Wrote: Perhaps comparing God to the man with a gun at your head is unfair because it ignores Original Sin. How does this comparison suit you:

A man is in the hospital dying slowly and tortuously from a horrible poison. A doctor enters with a syringe full of the antidote and says, "Do as I say or I'll just stand here and watch you suffer in agony. I have the antidote and can administer it immediately, but only if you do what I tell you. Otherwise, I'm just going to sit here and watch you suffer."

You have a misguided approach. God is not commanding us to do anything. We have the choice to follow Him and serve Him and love Him. We also have the choice not too.

God wants us to join him in Heaven. He is not standing back, holding back His help hostage.

Your analogy is all wrongs. He sent His only Son to suffer and die on the cross for our sins. What about His miracles? What about His sacraments and sacramentals?

Your image of God as a hostage taker, telling us to follow Him under pain of death  is wrong.
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#53
(12-13-2009, 10:33 PM)Walty Wrote:
(12-13-2009, 10:27 PM)nsper7 Wrote: Perhaps comparing God to the man with a gun at your head is unfair because it ignores Original Sin. How does this comparison suit you:

A man is in the hospital dying slowly and tortuously from a horrible poison. A doctor enters with a syringe full of the antidote and says, "Do as I say or I'll just stand here and watch you suffer in agony. I have the antidote and can administer it immediately, but only if you do what I tell you. Otherwise, I'm just going to sit here and watch you suffer."

Except that God is working at every moment to give us the antidote and the only reason we don't get it is because we keep kick and screaming to keep Him away.

2/2
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#54
(12-13-2009, 10:21 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
Quote:Are you willing to lose everything for Christ?  If He asked you to give everything up, would you?
Why should I be willing to? Because of the threat of Hell. Because that is what would motivate me to do that, plain and simple. I would despise Him, but I would obey. And again, doesn't the Church teach that the evangelical counsels (Christ's requirements to the rich young man to be "perfect") are not required for Salvation?
If you would despise Him, you would not be giving up everything for Christ.  You would be giving it up for yourself.  You would be giving it up so that you may not suffer.  There is a difference.  You are not willing to lose everything for Christ.  In order to lose everything for Christ, you must not keep it in your heart as well.
One must live the evangelical counsels in his heart.  He need not live them as solemn vows.
One must be poor in spirit and detached.  Even a wealthy man can be poor in spirit.
What is salvation to you?  Do you want to live with this boogieman you have created in Heaven?  Is that what you want?  Are you worshiping a god of hate?  Are you then worshiping a false god?
The God Who is in Heaven is nothing like this monster you imagine, and I do not know why you cling to the monster.  Perhaps fear of torment led you away from a life of sin, but there is more to be done.  This is why a life of minimalism does not work.  You're so stuck on the bare minimum that you do not realize it is not the minimum.  You have built something else on the foundations of the Faith.  You have built a monster.  This is not minimalism.  This is your own creation.

Quote:
Quote:People that "lose their life to Jesus" also tend to be happy. People like them. They demonstrate the Fruits of The Spirit: From the Catechism
Well then, most of the people here have definitely failed in that regard. I am not just being crass or silly. There seems to be very little love, peace, kindness and gentleness here.
If we had not love you would be gone.  We would ignore you.  Who are you to judge us?  We have peace as well, else we would not be extending it to you.  Kindness is found also in abundance here, in our patience with you to explain these things.  And gentleness in our means of doing so.  Hate you your brothers so much that you cannot see us trying?
Do you simply want an argument from the forum?  We have spoken to you for so long and yet you do not listen.  Just try and understand us, we are saying what we say out of love, out of concern for you.
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#55
(12-13-2009, 10:21 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
(12-13-2009, 08:20 PM)Anastasia Wrote: And consider what makes Hell terrible; Hell is simply the absence of God. If you're frightened at the thought of not being with God, then there must be something about God you want. So ask yourself what is it about God that makes you want to be in his presence? This might be helpful.

What scares me about Hell is the thought of torment, not being away from God. Remember, Hell is more than the absence of God, it is the presence of horrendous torment of which we cannot conceive. I think only a loon would want to suffer eternal torment.

Quote:Are you willing to lose everything for Christ?  If He asked you to give everything up, would you?

Why should I be willing to? Because of the threat of Hell. Because that is what would motivate me to do that, plain and simple. I would despise Him, but I would obey. And again, doesn't the Church teach that the evangelical counsels (Christ's requirements to the rich young man to be "perfect") are not required for Salvation?

Quote:People that "lose their life to Jesus" also tend to be happy. People like them. They demonstrate the Fruits of The Spirit: From the Catechism

Well then, most of the people here have definitely failed in that regard. I am not just being crass or silly. There seems to be very little love, peace, kindness and gentleness here.

  The primary and the greatest torment in Hell is precisely the absence of God. It is called the pain of loss. We were created to return to our Creator but in Hell through our own choice we will never be able to "see" God.

  The evangelical counsels are indeed required to be able to live a life of greater perfection (religious take vows for this reason) but again we must follow the spirit of these counsels if we want sanctifying grace to grow in our souls. This is simply what separates the fervent from the lukewarm. Am I saying that all must be already perfect? No of course not. We fall time and time again for even Scripture says that the "just man falls seven times daily" but we have to tend towards perfection at least striving for holiness. All are called to holiness.

   We are not like the Muslims who view God will an all-absorbing fear. They don't see Him as a loving Father.  
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#56
Nsper7,
 
  Are you really searching for an answer?
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#57
Quote:If you would despise Him, you would not be giving up everything for Christ.  You would be giving it up for yourself.  You would be giving it up so that you may not suffer.  There is a difference.  You are not willing to lose everything for Christ.  In order to lose everything for Christ, you must not keep it in your heart as well.
One must live the evangelical counsels in his heart.  He need not live them as solemn vows.
One must be poor in spirit and detached.  Even a wealthy man can be poor in spirit.
What is salvation to you?  Do you want to live with this boogieman you have created in Heaven?  Is that what you want?  Are you worshiping a god of hate?  Are you then worshiping a false god?
The God Who is in Heaven is nothing like this monster you imagine, and I do not know why you cling to the monster.  Perhaps fear of torment led you away from a life of sin, but there is more to be done.  This is why a life of minimalism does not work.  You're so stuck on the bare minimum that you do not realize it is not the minimum.  You have built something else on the foundations of the Faith.  You have built a monster.  This is not minimalism.  This is your own creation.

Then why does the Church say (and this is a Pre-Vatican 2 issue so this is not a modernist crap thing) that obedience to the evangelical counsels are NOT REQUIRED in order to be Saved?

Quote:Are you really searching for an answer?

In a way, I feel like I have found the answer. It is either follow God or burn in Hell for all eternity.
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#58
(12-13-2009, 10:42 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
Quote:If you would despise Him, you would not be giving up everything for Christ.  You would be giving it up for yourself.  You would be giving it up so that you may not suffer.  There is a difference.  You are not willing to lose everything for Christ.  In order to lose everything for Christ, you must not keep it in your heart as well.
One must live the evangelical counsels in his heart.  He need not live them as solemn vows.
One must be poor in spirit and detached.  Even a wealthy man can be poor in spirit.
What is salvation to you?  Do you want to live with this boogieman you have created in Heaven?  Is that what you want?  Are you worshiping a god of hate?  Are you then worshiping a false god?
The God Who is in Heaven is nothing like this monster you imagine, and I do not know why you cling to the monster.  Perhaps fear of torment led you away from a life of sin, but there is more to be done.  This is why a life of minimalism does not work.  You're so stuck on the bare minimum that you do not realize it is not the minimum.  You have built something else on the foundations of the Faith.  You have built a monster.  This is not minimalism.  This is your own creation.

Then why does the Church say (and this is a Pre-Vatican 2 issue so this is not a modernist crap thing) that obedience to the evangelical counsels are NOT REQUIRED in order to be Saved?

Quote:Are you really searching for an answer?

In a way, I feel like I have found the answer. It is either follow God or burn in Hell for all eternity.

If you are following God as best as you can, perhaps falling along the way as we all do, then why are you so fixated on Hell?
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#59
(12-13-2009, 10:42 PM)nsper7 Wrote: In a way, I feel like I have found the answer. It is either follow God or burn in Hell for all eternity.
What is it to follow God?  In what does it consist?  In arguing and moping?  In fearing?  In following a legalistic code of ethics?
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#60
(12-13-2009, 10:43 PM)obscurus Wrote:
(12-13-2009, 10:42 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
Quote:If you would despise Him, you would not be giving up everything for Christ.  You would be giving it up for yourself.  You would be giving it up so that you may not suffer.  There is a difference.  You are not willing to lose everything for Christ.  In order to lose everything for Christ, you must not keep it in your heart as well.
One must live the evangelical counsels in his heart.  He need not live them as solemn vows.
One must be poor in spirit and detached.  Even a wealthy man can be poor in spirit.
What is salvation to you?  Do you want to live with this boogieman you have created in Heaven?  Is that what you want?  Are you worshiping a god of hate?  Are you then worshiping a false god?
The God Who is in Heaven is nothing like this monster you imagine, and I do not know why you cling to the monster.  Perhaps fear of torment led you away from a life of sin, but there is more to be done.  This is why a life of minimalism does not work.  You're so stuck on the bare minimum that you do not realize it is not the minimum.  You have built something else on the foundations of the Faith.  You have built a monster.  This is not minimalism.  This is your own creation.

Then why does the Church say (and this is a Pre-Vatican 2 issue so this is not a modernist crap thing) that obedience to the evangelical counsels are NOT REQUIRED in order to be Saved?

Quote:Are you really searching for an answer?

In a way, I feel like I have found the answer. It is either follow God or burn in Hell for all eternity.

If you are following God as best as you can, falling along the way as we all do, then why are so fixated on Hell?

Well, the question is: what must I do to be Saved? I have dreams, desires and goals and I feel like God, being who He is, will shoot them down. Now, right now, I feel a desire for politics, to be important and successful in that field. Now, is God going to shoot that down and then shoot me right down into Hell?

Quote:In following a legalistic code of ethics?

In a way, this is what the Church says is required and even Christ Himself said this as well, "Keep the commandments".
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