Is It Sinful to Take a Minimalist View of Faith?
#71
(12-13-2009, 10:34 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
Quote:By your own admission you said you don't want to know him or love him. That, by its very definition, is hell.

Hell minus the horrendous torment, being roasted over and over again, tortured in the most heinous ways possible, suffering forever.

Can I make it any clearer? People who don’t like God very much aren’t going to want to spend all of eternity with him. Right? Would it frighten you less if he just zapped you into non-existence instead of allowing you to burn and burn? Would you then not bother with faith at all? Hell is a consequence of not loving God; it's not an excuse for having "minimal faith."
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#72
(12-13-2009, 10:56 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
Quote:However we are meant to penetrate the deeper meaning behind these precepts.

And if we refuse?

Quote:I think all this guys wants is attention...A forum for his antics..

The same could be said about most Traditional Catholics. I mean, why should I obsess about the TLM and the Pre-Vatican 2 Church or will I be condemned to Hell for going to the NO and being obedient to the Church in the Post-Vatican 2 Era?

I am not sure you are serious about these questions but if you want to be a mediocre Catholic go ahead. All I know, and I fail in this everyday, Christ wants more than a superficial observance of His commandments.
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#73
(12-13-2009, 10:56 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
Quote:I think all this guys wants is attention...A forum for his antics..
The same could be said about most Traditional Catholics. I mean, why should I obsess about the TLM and the Pre-Vatican 2 Church or will I be condemned to Hell for going to the NO and being obedient to the Church in the Post-Vatican 2 Era?
We do not obsess over an archaic form of the Mass.  The TLM is now.  We don't come here for attention, we come here for mutual support in our Faith.
There is not a divide such as you have explained here.  You are creating this in your mind.  The Church's teachings have not, will not, and cannot change.  We hold to the teachings as they have always been.  If the NO makes you a depressed legalist or a sinning liberal, I want no part of it.  You must be obedient to the Church in the Pre-Vatican 2 era because it is the same Church despite appearances.  There is no difference, and you seem to believe that there is.  This is not a matter of aesthetics, it is about striving.  We here strive for the best, and come together for mutual support here.  To accept the NO is to accept a less heavenly Mass, an anti-thesis of liturgical evolution, a rupture, a backtrack.  That is why we are here.  You came here, we did not shout to you.  This forum does not need your attention.  We do not need eachother's attention.  But we do need eachother's help and prayers.
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#74
(12-13-2009, 10:57 PM)Walty Wrote:
(12-13-2009, 10:53 PM)obscurus Wrote: 2. Yes "Keep the Commandments". However we are meant to penetrate the deeper meaning behind these precepts. The Pharisees had a legalistic mind and forgot the two greatest commandments. Christ reprimanded them for this attitude.

It is important to always keep the Beatitudes in mind when looking at the Commandments.  They are the fulfillment of the Law.  The Law is not abolished, but it is not enough to simply do this and avoid that.  Christ, in his making all things new, perfects the idea of the Law and decrees that we totally change our being into a certain type of thing.  To be Christian is not to follow a set of legalistic rules, but to have a certain spiritual attitude which can be summed up in the Beatitudes (which find their fulfillment in Jesus Christ).

What if I want to take the 'legalistic' approach? If one follows the law as the Church dictates, then how can they be condemned? If someone is obeying the law, then they are obeying the law.

Quote:Can I make it any clearer? People who don’t like God very much aren’t going to want to spend all of eternity with him. Right? Would it frighten you less if he just zapped you into non-existence instead of allowing you to burn and burn? Would you then not bother with perfection at all? Hell is a consequence of not loving God; it's not an excuse for having "minimal faith."

But the issue is not spend eternity with God or without God, it is spend eternity with God or spent it without God, but in horrendous suffering heaped on. Well, under those conditions, I'd have to be an idiot or a not not to choose the path of least suffering, but that is not love. Compare it to marriage: would you love your spouse if he/she basically told you that you either marry them or suffer (regardless of how they couch it--they might threaten to torture you or just to standby and watch you suffer).
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#75
All I am reading about is your fixation on suffering, torments, Hell, fear, laws...
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#76
(12-13-2009, 11:05 PM)nsper7 Wrote: But the issue is not spend eternity with God or without God, it is spend eternity with God or spent it without God, but in horrendous suffering heaped on. Well, under those conditions, I'd have to be an idiot or a not not to choose the path of least suffering, but that is not love. Compare it to marriage: would you love your spouse if he/she basically told you that you either marry them or suffer (regardless of how they couch it--they might threaten to torture you or just to standby and watch you suffer).

You have this backwards.  What if you loved someone so much that you had to marry them and spend your life with them, or else it would be the greatest suffering to you?  What if someone so completed you that you could not bear to be without them?
God completes us - Christ completes His Bride the Church - more than any earthly person could complete their spouse.
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#77
(12-13-2009, 11:05 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
(12-13-2009, 10:57 PM)Walty Wrote:
(12-13-2009, 10:53 PM)obscurus Wrote: 2. Yes "Keep the Commandments". However we are meant to penetrate the deeper meaning behind these precepts. The Pharisees had a legalistic mind and forgot the two greatest commandments. Christ reprimanded them for this attitude.

It is important to always keep the Beatitudes in mind when looking at the Commandments.  They are the fulfillment of the Law.  The Law is not abolished, but it is not enough to simply do this and avoid that.  Christ, in his making all things new, perfects the idea of the Law and decrees that we totally change our being into a certain type of thing.  To be Christian is not to follow a set of legalistic rules, but to have a certain spiritual attitude which can be summed up in the Beatitudes (which find their fulfillment in Jesus Christ).

What if I want to take the 'legalistic' approach? If one follows the law as the Church dictates, then how can they be condemned? If someone is obeying the law, then they are obeying the law.

The legalistic approach is for the Pharisee and not for the Catholic.  That is why I mentioned the Beatitudes and why Christ gave them in the first place.  To be a Christian is to desire the Good with your entire heart and soul and mind.  It isn't possible to do that just up to a certain point.  There isn't a bare minimum involved with that.  You either give your entire self over to Christ (and desire full unity of every part of yourself with Him) or you don't.  What you are talking about is wanting to give a few things to God, but keep a lot of things for yourself.  That's not how Christianity works.
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#78
(12-13-2009, 11:09 PM)Louis_Martin Wrote:
(12-13-2009, 11:05 PM)nsper7 Wrote: But the issue is not spend eternity with God or without God, it is spend eternity with God or spent it without God, but in horrendous suffering heaped on. Well, under those conditions, I'd have to be an idiot or a not not to choose the path of least suffering, but that is not love. Compare it to marriage: would you love your spouse if he/she basically told you that you either marry them or suffer (regardless of how they couch it--they might threaten to torture you or just to standby and watch you suffer).

You have this backwards.  What if you loved someone so much that you had to marry them and spend your life with them, or else it would be the greatest suffering to you?  What if someone so completed you that you could not bear to be without them?

Well, right now, I sure don't feel that way about Christ.

Quote:The legalistic approach is for the Pharisee and not for the Catholic.  That is why I mentioned the Beatitudes and why Christ gave them in the first place.  To be a Christian is to desire the Good with your entire heart and soul and mind.  It isn't possible to do that just up to a certain point.  There isn't a bare minimum involved with that.  You either give your entire self over to Christ (and desire full unity of every part of yourself with Him) or you don't.  What you are talking about is wanting to give a few things to God, but keep a lot of things for yourself.  That's not how Christianity works.

I am getting confused here. If obeying the evangelical counsels (Beatitudes) is required for Salvation, then why doesn't the Church say so? All She says is required is obedience to the precepts. Also, the Pharisees were not condemned for being legalistic, but for being hypocritical. Why can't I keep things for myself? Does the Church require that we give our entire selves over to Christ in order to be Saved?

In other words, why should I give my entire self over to Christ? Simply fear of eternal damnation and suffering?
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#79
Tell me. How are we supposed to obey the precepts? What type of disposition must we have?
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#80
Even if you wanted to do the "bare minimum" and follow the Commandments and precepts of the Church, the greatest Commandment remains to love God. If you do not love God and only fear Him, you will not enter the Kingdom of God. That's the end of the story.

If you don't love God, and don't even want to, you have no hope. If you resist God's love, you will never receive it except for by some very extraordinary grace. That's not to say that such a grace won't be given you, or isn't being given to you presently. But if you imagine that you can persist in rejecting God's love and his call to sanctity, you are mistaken.

"And behold a certain lawyer stood up, tempting him, and saying, Master, what must I do to possess eternal life? But he said to him: What is written in the law? how readest thou? He answering, said: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind: and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said to him: Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live." Luke X xxv xxviii
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