Is It Sinful to Take a Minimalist View of Faith?
#81
(12-13-2009, 11:26 PM)actiofidei Wrote: Even if you wanted to do the "bare minimum" and follow the Commandments and precepts of the Church, the greatest Commandment remains to love God. If you do not love God and only fear Him, you will not enter the Kingdom of God. That's the end of the story.

If you don't love God, and don't even want to, you have no hope. If you resist God's love, you will never receive it except for by some very extraordinary grace. That's not to say that such a grace won't be given you, or isn't being given to you presently. But if you imagine that you can persist in rejecting God's love and his call to sanctity, you are mistaken.

"And behold a certain lawyer stood up, tempting him, and saying, Master, what must I do to possess eternal life? But he said to him: What is written in the law? how readest thou? He answering, said: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind: and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said to him: Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live." Luke X xxv xxviii

Then in the end it comes down to love God or burn in Hell. In truth, that infuriates me, not that my opinion matters on the subject. Still, even the most despicable and evil of human dictators did not impose that requirement. How can I truly love God if the only other option is Hell?
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#82
(12-13-2009, 11:28 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
(12-13-2009, 11:26 PM)actiofidei Wrote: Even if you wanted to do the "bare minimum" and follow the Commandments and precepts of the Church, the greatest Commandment remains to love God. If you do not love God and only fear Him, you will not enter the Kingdom of God. That's the end of the story.

If you don't love God, and don't even want to, you have no hope. If you resist God's love, you will never receive it except for by some very extraordinary grace. That's not to say that such a grace won't be given you, or isn't being given to you presently. But if you imagine that you can persist in rejecting God's love and his call to sanctity, you are mistaken.

"And behold a certain lawyer stood up, tempting him, and saying, Master, what must I do to possess eternal life? But he said to him: What is written in the law? how readest thou? He answering, said: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind: and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said to him: Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live." Luke X xxv xxviii

Then in the end it comes down to love God or burn in Hell. In truth, that infuriates me, not that my opinion matters on the subject. Still, even the most despicable and evil of human dictators did not impose that requirement. How can I truly love God if the only other option is Hell?
:doh: It works the other way around.  Love God or go to Hell because if you cannot love Love itself, then you are incapable of any joy.  That is why Hell is joyless.
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#83
What does it mean to be detached from things? Does it mean I cannot seek wealth, power, etc.? I have goals and desire and I feel that God is always out to ruin whatever I want to do. I want to succeed in politics, I want to feel important, but also to accomplish things. In fact, it is not so much wealth I seek since the only way one gets wealthy in politics is usually through illicit mean. In fact, it is not so much power I seek, but the ability to influence and gain people's respect. Also, there are the trappings of power.
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#84
(12-13-2009, 11:34 PM)nsper7 Wrote: What does it mean to be detached from things? Does it mean I cannot seek wealth, power, etc.? I have goals and desire and I feel that God is always out to ruin whatever I want to do.

The problem is when we set up these things as idols as many in the modern world do.
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#85
(12-13-2009, 11:37 PM)obscurus Wrote:
(12-13-2009, 11:34 PM)nsper7 Wrote: What does it mean to be detached from things? Does it mean I cannot seek wealth, power, etc.? I have goals and desire and I feel that God is always out to ruin whatever I want to do.

The problem is when we set up these things as idols as many in the modern world do.

Does it mean that to follow God we must give up all our desires, hopes and dreams? Is that what it means? Because that seems like Hell right there (minus the fire and torment and God standing over us smiling I mean).
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#86
(12-13-2009, 11:20 PM)nsper7 Wrote: I am getting confused here. If obeying the evangelical counsels (Beatitudes) is required for Salvation, then why doesn't the Church say so? All She says is required is obedience to the precepts. Also, the Pharisees were not condemned for being legalistic, but for being hypocritical. Why can't I keep things for myself? Does the Church require that we give our entire selves over to Christ in order to be Saved?

In other words, why should I give my entire self over to Christ? Simply fear of eternal damnation and suffering?

The Beatitudes aren't something you obey as precepts.  They are something you live.  

You don't give yourself over to Christ entirely out of fear of damnation but out of the understanding of what God is.  He is the object and fulfillment of all of our desires.  He is Truth.  He is Beauty and Joy and Goodness itself.  You wish to be in union with Him because everything else is stale and hopeless.  You wish to be in union with Him because He is beyond all.
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#87
:deadhorse:
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#88
(12-13-2009, 11:38 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
(12-13-2009, 11:37 PM)obscurus Wrote:
(12-13-2009, 11:34 PM)nsper7 Wrote: What does it mean to be detached from things? Does it mean I cannot seek wealth, power, etc.? I have goals and desire and I feel that God is always out to ruin whatever I want to do.

The problem is when we set up these things as idols as many in the modern world do.

Does it mean that to follow God we must give up all our desires, hopes and dreams? Is that what it means? Because that seems like Hell right there (minus the fire and torment and God standing over us smiling I mean).

Of course you can have desires, hopes and dreams!! That is part of being human!
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#89
(12-13-2009, 11:40 PM)obscurus Wrote:
(12-13-2009, 11:38 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
(12-13-2009, 11:37 PM)obscurus Wrote:
(12-13-2009, 11:34 PM)nsper7 Wrote: What does it mean to be detached from things? Does it mean I cannot seek wealth, power, etc.? I have goals and desire and I feel that God is always out to ruin whatever I want to do.

The problem is when we set up these things as idols as many in the modern world do.

Does it mean that to follow God we must give up all our desires, hopes and dreams? Is that what it means? Because that seems like Hell right there (minus the fire and torment and God standing over us smiling I mean).

Of course you can have desires, hopes and dreams!! That is part of being human!

But God is just waiting to pull us away from them, isn't He?
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#90
(12-13-2009, 11:28 PM)nsper7 Wrote:
(12-13-2009, 11:26 PM)actiofidei Wrote: Even if you wanted to do the "bare minimum" and follow the Commandments and precepts of the Church, the greatest Commandment remains to love God. If you do not love God and only fear Him, you will not enter the Kingdom of God. That's the end of the story.

If you don't love God, and don't even want to, you have no hope. If you resist God's love, you will never receive it except for by some very extraordinary grace. That's not to say that such a grace won't be given you, or isn't being given to you presently. But if you imagine that you can persist in rejecting God's love and his call to sanctity, you are mistaken.

"And behold a certain lawyer stood up, tempting him, and saying, Master, what must I do to possess eternal life? But he said to him: What is written in the law? how readest thou? He answering, said: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind: and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said to him: Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live." Luke X xxv xxviii

Then in the end it comes down to love God or burn in Hell. In truth, that infuriates me, not that my opinion matters on the subject. Still, even the most despicable and evil of human dictators did not impose that requirement. How can I truly love God if the only other option is Hell?

Either you love God, and therefore want to be with him, or you don't love him, and therefore want to be away from him. God is good and all goodness is in God. It is necessary, then, that being away from God is the absence of all that is good (hell). Just because God is goodness itself and the absence of God is the greatest torment doesn't mean that God intentionally set up some ultimatum between him and hell, in which we are virtually compelled to choose him for fear of pain. There is just simply no other way around it when the thing you are choosing or not choosing is Goodness itself. There can't be Goodness and then another option for some other kind of goodness. There is only one God--there is only one Goodness to choose.

Sorry, but by virtue of what God is, this is the way things are. If you are unable to love God as a result of your own narrow view of the thing, then that is unfortunate indeed. Just know that he has loved you first, whatever you may think.
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