Fr. Z sees red and does black deeds against Bishop Williamson
#51
(12-17-2009, 01:56 AM)Baskerville Wrote: To read Bishop Williamson with suspicion is to read the traditional teachings of the Church with suspicion. In all the things I've read from Bsp W he is firmly in line with trad teachings that go back thousands of years. The same can not be said of Fr. Z who leans modernist.
???
Do we have a cult of personality going here?  He may be a bishop, but he's not the pope and cannot speak infallibly...

Even if he's well in line with the Traditional teachings of the Church, this does not mean we can take everything that comes from him as dogma.  Are you really equating this one man with thousands of years of Tradition?
Reply
#52
No I dount see him doing that at all.
Relax
Reply
#53
If more Bishops stood up for the Faith like Bishop Wiliamson, I'll bet all of these problems we're facing now would be considerably less important ... society would be more felicitous, the world would be more beautiful...

Gerard Wrote:
Those revolutionaries did not have the courtesy to leave like the original Protestants.  They want to stay inside and change it.  Card. Bea related a story to Fr. Malachi Martin of Hans Kung and Schillebeeckxs having a conversation in his presence where they said that exact thing. 

Trads have long been calling that Illusion "The Great Facade" covering over the real face of the Church for years now.


Sometimes I get the impression that a lot of these theologians and ecclesiastical big-whigs are like rock starts who look with contempt at their fans behind the scenes.

Reply
#54
(12-17-2009, 12:23 PM)Dust Wrote:
(12-17-2009, 01:56 AM)Baskerville Wrote: To read Bishop Williamson with suspicion is to read the traditional teachings of the Church with suspicion. In all the things I've read from Bsp W he is firmly in line with trad teachings that go back thousands of years. The same can not be said of Fr. Z who leans modernist.
???
Do we have a cult of personality going here?  He may be a bishop, but he's not the pope and cannot speak infallibly...

First of all, Dust, if you know anything about Bishop Williamson, you know that he does indeed have a personality cult, just as Bishop Sheen did, and Cardinal Ratzinger, and Karol Wojtyla, and on, and on, and on.  Oh and trust me, Fr. Z's personality cult is nothing to laugh at (or maybe it is?)  The following

Quote:Even if he's well in line with the Traditional teachings of the Church, this does not mean we can take everything that comes from him as dogma.  Are you really equating this one man with thousands of years of Tradition?

can obviously apply to every man on the above list.

So don't be so surprised by the fact that Bishop Williamson has a personality cult.  There's a lot of people who get satisfaction from the fact that he does because they think it proves that the people who listen to what he says don't think too critically.  I hope you're not one of those people.

Second, Baskerville's statement is completely accurate.  I've listened to a lot of Bishop Williamson's words and read a bit of his writings.  I've never found anything objectionable to my sense of the Faith (I found him objectionable on other matters, but that's not what we're talking about).

On the other hand... Wojtyla, Ratzinger, yes, even Sheen (though very rarely) have offended my sense of the Faith.  And just in case you wonder, it happened BEFORE I ever read anything written by SSPX clerics.

I make no secret about the fact that I like Bishops Williamson, Ratzinger, and Sheen.  And perhaps at times I listen to them all with the undue credulity of a personality cultist, but what does any of that have to do with Williamson's, IMO, impeccable orthodoxy?  Not a thing.  If he ever says anything contrary to the teaching of the Church, I certainly won't excuse him because I think he's one of the coolest bishops in modern times!  Just as I haven't excused Ratzinger, Wojtyla, or Sheen.  And I won't excuse Fr. Z either.

What's your point?
Reply
#55
My point, Kakhur, was that Baskerville (and others here and at other times) seemed offended by anyone doubting +Williamson on anything... I know he has a personality cult going (as do many others, including Fr. Z as I am now discovering) and was warning against it as a matter of principle. 

While I like and agree with Williamson in some respects, and have a great admiration for his determination and spine, I always thought he mixed Faith and his personal opinion a little too much in a way that tended to make opinion look like dogma in some people's eyes.  No distinction was made that he was talking about the bishop's writings on Faith only.  Maybe that was implied by the whole nature of the thread, and the particular writing of his that started all this.  If that was the case, I apologize.

It just seemed that this whole thread was turning into (or judging by the title, which was amusing but less than kind, maybe started out as) a big Williamson cult get together, angrily ripping on some priest who read something he wrote and called him out on some potential trouble spots.  Going just off what was written in this one letter, father's comments did not seem all that out of place.  Fr. Z obviously disagrees with the SSPX, and thus he's not a member, but I don't hold that against him.

It also seemed that no one else here would ever call anyone out on it.
Reply
#56
Augstine Baker wrote:

"If more bishops stood up for the faith like Bishop Williamson, I'll bet all of those problems we're facing now would be considerably less important......."


I agree with what you wrote here, and though I'm going off topic here,  I'd like to point out that it's not always the Catholic faith that Bp. Williamson stands up for. And for me, that's a huge problem. It's been a problem for the SSPX, too. That other thing that he stands up for is Revisionism, which is more ecumenical than specifically Catholic. It's an ecumenical movement. He spends time with non-Catholics in this endeavor. And some of these non-Catholics are certifiable nutbars. IMO.
Reply
#57
Wow...so all you old washwomen are all out here to gossip about Fr. Z now? :laughing:
Reply
#58
(12-18-2009, 02:47 PM)Meg Wrote: Augstine Baker wrote:

"If more bishops stood up for the faith like Bishop Williamson, I'll bet all of those problems we're facing now would be considerably less important......."


I agree with what you wrote here, and though I'm going off topic here,  I'd like to point out that it's not always the Catholic faith that Bp. Williamson stands up for. And for me, that's a huge problem. It's been a problem for the SSPX, too. That other thing that he stands up for is Revisionism, which is more ecumenical than specifically Catholic. It's an ecumenical movement. He spends time with non-Catholics in this endeavor. And some of these non-Catholics are certifiable nutbars. IMO.

His issues with revisionism touch on a problem which does indeed involve the Church and it's the problem with relativism.  As long as people are going to rule these discussions by raw emotionalism and hollywood versions of reality, the Church and souls are in danger, because that's what the Church is; the Church is real and true.


If we're going to judge the truth according to people's emotional responses to things, I can think of no other course we could be on than to Hell itself.

Reply
#59
It'd be best for Fr. Z not to comment on the Bishop. I'm almost embarrassed for him, really.  :-[
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
Reply
#60
(12-17-2009, 02:11 AM)Gerard Wrote: I believe the clergy that are in love with the Council,  have what I would call a "Prometheus Complex" ... 

But they seem convinced that traditional Catholicism does not evoke an intimacy with the Divine.  So, they are trying to prepackage in some of the most absurd ways an  experience of God.  It's like they are going to steal  the fire and bring it to Man.  The problem is Prometheus is a myth about a guy who succeeded in stealing from the gods and got severely punished.  These guys are trying to co-opt the real God's revelation of Himself to each of us and horn in on our own relatiionship with Him.  

It all stinks of Karl Rahner if I had to place it on one person's influence.   Pride of intellect with a very weak sense of faith, if anyone has ever read some of his "Prayers for a Lifetime"  you'll see what I mean.    

Gerard, that is the most simple, succinct and accurate way of putting it that I've ever come across. Thanks for that!
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)