Concerning Lay Preaching and Such
#61
(12-29-2009, 01:57 AM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote: Also, I think the thread has a subtext that hasn't been elucidated, and that is what about us poor slubbs who have never seen the inside of a college? I mean I think it is wrong headed to hold that only the highly educated can pronounce and defend the faith.

I've been following this thread with interest, especially the subtext concerning the role of education.  I am coming at it from a different perspective, though.  I am highly educated.  I do have a degree in theology.  Not only do I have an MDiv, I graduated at the top of my class.  I appear to have a talent for academic pursuits and often wonder how I should be offering this to the service of God.  It is not something that is very clear to me and this thread has made it even murkier.  (That is not a complaint, by the way. I am very grateful for the information and ideas being expressed here.)
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#62
(12-29-2009, 12:16 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:
(12-29-2009, 09:49 AM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: In fact I often get along better with non-Catholics than Catholics of the EWTN-esque variety.  At least the Satanists don't tell me I'm a bad schismatic Catholic :laughing:  Well, except for one ex-Satanist turned trad turned Neo-Catholic apologist.   But he was probably a nicer guy when he was a Satanist and before he started drinking the Stubenville Kool-Aid; unfortunately I only ran into him after the imbibing.

Quis, how could you expect anyone to respond seriously to such blatant insults?

Well, I'm not sure what you're talking about.  The Neo-Catholic apologist I'm talking about is certainly not  Patrick.  I just find it ironic I've been treated better as a Catholic by non-Catholics - including as non-Catholic as you can get -  than my brethren.  As far as "Stubenville Kool-Aid" sure I could have used less rhetoric, but I still would say that he has bought wholesale into the "Our way is The Catholic Way" including denigrating traditional Catholics.  In fact, he and his pals used to have fun trolling trad forums.  Now, most of this was several years back, and I hope he's grown up since then, but all of it is unfortunately true.

I tried to get my son into a Neo-Catholic school once.  I made the point of asking them if they accept non-Catholics, and I asked if they accepted Jews, Orthodox, Protestants, etc. They said, "Oh by all means, yes!"  Then I told the woman showing us the school we went to an SSPX chapel (this was pre-indult).  She said, "Oh you have to talk to the administrator".  The administrator said, "It would not be possible for your son to attend school here."  So there you have it.  They'll allow everyone into their school but a traditional Catholic.

So I go across the street to the non-denominational Christian school and ask if they'll take us.  The pastor says, for sure as long as you are Christian. I say "Are Catholics who go to a Latin Mass Christian?"  He laughs then he makes a point to show me the "Saint Gregory the Great Music Room", that they teach Gregorian Chant as part of the music curriculum, and points out that they teach Latin in grade school to those who want it.  Allowances will be made for missing theology class if I have a letter from the pastor that the child is getting teaching at the church.  Unfortunately, I could not afford this school.

I was talking to a Protty one time about the Real Presence.  He said to me, "If I believed that were really the body and blood of Christ I would be crawling on my knees to that altar."  He got why we get our panties in a bunch about kneeling for Communion, no EMHCs, no Communion-in-hand.  He didn't think I was some retarded dinosaur.  I have great conversations with Hassidic Jews about theology as well; the reformed Jews, eh, not so much.  One of my friends is Orthodox and he was getting ready for his son's brit milah (circumcision).  He complained to me that his wife - who was Reformed - wanted a brit shalom (naming ceremony with no cutting).  I told him that was like baptism with no water.  We totally understood each other.

SSPX/Diocese issues aside (and I'm not an SSPX-only person as people probably know), when I go to a non-Catholic and tell them I go to the TLM they are usually interested and ask how I can understand a Mass in Latin, some like the aesthetics of it, etc.  Very rarely do I take crap for it.  The same is not true when I talk to an "EWTN-esque" Catholic. 

It seems to me that something is very wrong when people who, at least to me, have a sincere love of Christ and a sincere love of Church find a way to turn against the people (trads) who want to hold onto the holy traditions (lower case t) of the Church.  I'll let everyone draw their own conclusions on why this has occurred, but I have my thoughts on the matter.  Really, though, it doesn't follow logic, does it?  The Popes didn't behave like this.  JP2 and B16 especially "got it" about trads.

And if you think I'm exaggerating about the Satanists treating trads better than the Neo-Catholics treat trads, I have an article by a hard-core Satanist from way back in the 1970's that mentions Abp. Lefebvre by name and delights in the fact that the Church paints him as crazy and has thrown aside its liturgy, etc.  I can post it, if you want.  When the enemy gets excited about something, it usually isn't a good sign.

In any case, I don't expect Patrick to respond to what you quoted above.  If he responds to anything, I would think it would be what I addressed to him in civil terms.  I'm sure, unfortunately, Patrick has heard far worse from others both Catholic and non-Catholic.  And he can dish it out, too.  I wouldn't worry about Patrick - seriously.  Someone doesn't stay in apologetics this long without an asbestos codpiece.  That said, in what I addressed to him, I thought I was civil.  If I wasn't, then I apologize.
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#63
(12-29-2009, 03:51 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(12-29-2009, 01:57 AM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote: Also, I think the thread has a subtext that hasn't been elucidated, and that is what about us poor slubbs who have never seen the inside of a college? I mean I think it is wrong headed to hold that only the highly educated can pronounce and defend the faith.

I've been following this thread with interest, especially the subtext concerning the role of education.  I am coming at it from a different perspective, though.  I am highly educated.  I do have a degree in theology.  Not only do I have an MDiv, I graduated at the top of my class.  I appear to have a talent for academic pursuits and often wonder how I should be offering this to the service of God.  It is not something that is very clear to me and this thread has made it even murkier.  (That is not a complaint, by the way. I am very grateful for the information and ideas being expressed here.)

If you want my opinion (har).

Given that I know a bit about your situation from your posts, my suggestion is this:

Go to your NO pastor, tell him you have an MDiv and want to put it to use.  Teach RCIA or pre-Cana (though, AFAIK pre-cana is usually taught by a couple, so you may have to drag your husband into this).  If you can work with children, offer to teach Catechism.

Teach a thoroughly orthodox RCIA and pre-Cana.  Parrot the Church, use your training to supply answers to difficult questions - hopefully by showing people the answer in an authoritative text, and your wisdom to refer people to the pastor when necessary.

That is a very important job - you are bringing people into the Church and the Sacrament of Marriage.  It requires knowledge and today many, many people are poorly formed.  Since your pastor is open to traditional practices, make sure besides the Catechism you offer lessons on the Rosary, the Saints, etc.  Fill their hearts and minds with Orthodox Catholicism so they have a good grounding.  There is no more important work than helping others to Christ.

I would start with that.  Then, maybe later with the pastor forming and approving the curriculum, you could teach an adult apologetics class.  Even in my weird world, there is a place for lay apologetics.  Especially cradle Catholics often forget (or never learned!) the hows and whys of their Faith, and this lets them firm up their grounding and learn more advanced things such as some people learn in college.

Put yourself at the service of your pastor.  You sound like you have a good pastor.  He will know what to do.

BTW, if you ever run into "women shouldn't teach" here is a good Trad response:

“About the injunction of the Apostle Paul that women should keep silent in church? Don't go by one text only.” - attributed to St. Teresa of Avila, O.C.D., Doctor of the Church
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#64
(12-29-2009, 02:18 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: .

?
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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#65
(12-29-2009, 10:25 AM)Jacafamala Wrote: An ex-Satanist turned trad turned Neo-Catholic apologist, you say? Well, that is a trip.  :laughing: Give him time, perhaps he just needs time.

Well, obviously it is a good thing he is a Catholic, and his past shouldn't be held against him - St. Augustine was a pagan after all and St. Paul persecuted Christians.  Unfortunately most of us do stupid things as youths, and this was his stupid thing.  If God held that stuff against us, we'd all be doomed.

I just found it ironic that he was probably more "tolerant" of trads through everything until he became EWTN-esque.
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#66
(12-29-2009, 07:23 PM)Jacafamala Wrote:
(12-29-2009, 02:18 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: .

?

She recanted.  People can't delete posts, they can only delete contents if they change their minds about what they said.  My motto is we should leave it be and respect the person's decision to remove a post.  I.e., don't ask questions. :)
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#67
I've actually read mr. Madrid's Pope Fiction some years ago.

From what I remember, it was not bad.
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#68
(12-29-2009, 07:38 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote:
(12-29-2009, 07:23 PM)Jacafamala Wrote:
(12-29-2009, 02:18 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: .

?

She recanted.  People can't delete posts, they can only delete contents if they change their minds about what they said.  My motto is we should leave it be and respect the person's decision to remove a post.   I.e., don't ask questions. :)

Ah so. Well, I hope I didn't get her mad at me.
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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#69
(12-29-2009, 07:22 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: If you want my opinion (har).

Well, I am interested in your opinion, but I want your prayers more.  I hope that I can have both.

(12-29-2009, 07:22 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: Put yourself at the service of your pastor.  You sound like you have a good pastor.  He will know what to do.

He is a good pastor and he knows of my desire to serve.  He has a policy of avoiding putting laity in teaching positions, especially for RCIA.  In the majority of cases, this is probably a good idea.  It might even be a good idea in my case.  In spite of my degree, I do not have a good Catholic formation.  Can you believe that they give an MDiv degree without any requirement for Thomistic philosophy?  :o I ended up taking a one semester introductory course on the Summa because it fit my schedule and that is it.  Much of what I studied was of questionable orthodoxy or usefulness.  I feel like I need to do it all over again properly.

I serve in my parish by membership in the choir which the pastor started to promote tradition and Latin in our parish's music.  Singing does not come as easily to me as scholarship.  Perhaps this is a good thing.  I am far less tempted to pride as a singer than as a scholar. 
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#70
(12-29-2009, 11:08 PM)JayneK Wrote: I am far less tempted to pride as a singer than as a scholar. 

I was once a Baptist minister, so I really enjoy expounding upon Scripture and teaching.  So I was put in charge of our parish's adult Sunday School class as the teacher, and I noticed that I was beginning to struggle with pride.  So I decided to step back from teaching in the Church and just focus on my own spiritual life, and the spiritual lives of my family instead.  I am much happier now.  I would rather see me and my wife and children have salvation, than to have the admiration of the people at church for my knowledge.  :)
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