Are things getting better or worse in the Church?
#11
(12-26-2009, 05:00 AM)Hohepa Wrote: Forget about emotions..they aren't reliable. If you want the feel good factor go to a pentecostal church when they have a guest speaker...emotions are rampant.
Let the facts speak for themselves.
                 Reverent NO mass
                 Reverent Seminarians            
                 Young NO priests are singing parts of the mass in Latin...its not the TLM but it is the thin edge of the wedge
                 Old NO priests doing the same
                 The freeing up of the TLM..have a look at the Remnant..there are more churches every week offering the TLM
                 An almost universal rejection of  "All will be saved" and now without exception in my diocese  the priests  are referring to the many that will be saved. To me that shows that priests are obedient and accept the directions of their bishop but when the correct translation was admitted so many of them changed even before the new missal has been printed.
                 Some NO parishes  allowing boys only to be altar servers.
                 Debate within the Church about the role of Tradition in the interpretation of the Vat 2
                 Dialogue between the Vatican and SSPX on issues concerning the documents of V2
                 More and more people receiving communiion on the tongue
                 Whole dioceses being directed by bishop to take communion on the tongue.
                 The Pope has said  "No female ordinations" and those that have taken place, the priestesses have been excommunicated.

I really enjoy this site but I sometimes get alarmed at the  frequent barrage of abuse directed toward the Catholic church and the Vatican heirarchy. Yeah it is abuse of the Catholic Church...but at the same time I appreciate that it is the dissenting voices that are making some huge changes and they are heard and  valid concerns have been noted by Vatican ..voices such as Michael Davies, The Remnant, Dr John RAO, The Fatima Crusader and many others including posters on this site.

Take heart and remember what College Catholic reminds us ie  the church can't fail...it's scriptural.....the gates of hell will not prevail...end of story
                 
True true
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#12
(12-26-2009, 06:13 AM)Achonry Wrote: I am not sure either ! I am worried that there is more acceptance for traditional Catholic worship (or Conservative) but less interest in traditional Catholic doctrine. I see many priests less condemnatory of the Traditional Mass, but I wonder if it's true liberalism (=couldn't care less) creeping in. In England there are many traditional Masses, but not always an increase in numbers of laity attending.In my Parish we have the Traditional Mass on three Sundays in the month,but the numbers have not increased over the last three years. I have an awful feeling that many priests and even bishops are growing War Weary and are not bothered about what happens in Church. To give an example, recently we had a modern Jesuit offering Mass in our parish and the week before a Bishop. Both agreed to celebrate Eastward facing, (New Rite) without a whimper of a complaint and did it - by today's standards - carefully and reverently. But, I wonder what it all means. These two clerics may just as happily the next day commit all sorts of strange and weird liturgical goings-on ; maybe not. Are we becoming a Comprehensive Church, which since the Motu Proprio, accommodates even traditionalists - High Low and Middle churchmen ? (Bishop Fellay's Zoo Cage Catholicism is apposite)

We have this exact thing in the NO Church I was talking about. If Fr.R Celebrates Mass youll get a sermon on the evils of abortion and how we must follow our conscience according to the light of the Church and a Mass with a Gold Chalice the Roman Canon used incense and parts sung. If Fr P Celebrates you get a sermon on how the Church needs to accept Homosexuals how Obama is the best President he can remember and how the Church is out of touch for not ordaining women and being against the healthcare bill, and at Mass you get Eucharistic Prayer two and that ad libbed so there is no mention of God in the Male sense etc. and glass cups for The sacred Blood.
Then literally the next week Fr. R we'll say how courageous the Bishops are in standing up to our Catholic politicians who support "the evil obamacare bill" It would be laughable if not so sad. There is a low Church for the liberals and a High Church for the conservatives and this all in the same parish. I think best case scenario is that it will go on like this until the older liberals go away.
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#13
(12-26-2009, 02:36 AM)Petertherock Wrote: I say this with 100% absolute certainty...if a Pope ever starts ordaining women, I will officially be a Sede.

John Paul II declared clearly, and the Magisterium declared that infallible: the Church has no authorization to ordain women to priest and bishops. However it is very likely that one of the future popes will allow regularly the ordination of married men, and also the ordination of women as permanent deacons (John Paul II was very careful to make his statement only of priests and above)  Also it is almost certain that in this case the sedevaantist will cry oit in choir claiming heresy.

As for the judgment as Vatican II declared anyone has the right and obligation to follow his good faith conscience, the problem is only with the double morality, if someone believes that his/her conscience is the infallible truth consequently should be followed, but other are heretics belivibg in the power of the God given conscience. Non of us (except the pope in accord with college of bishops is infallible; he power of the conscience is based on God's revelation iin Rom 2:14)

As for the direction of the Church God is writing straight in crooked lines. The Church is Jesus Christ's presence in the Earth together with the Eucharist. The external liturgy  in itself is just what it is: external liturgy, pleasing the people. It is possible that the future Church will be based  in reverent guitar masses with hand clapping. God is everything, we and our likes cannot be measured to Him.

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#14
(12-26-2009, 06:36 AM)Baskerville Wrote:
(12-26-2009, 06:13 AM)Achonry Wrote: I am not sure either ! I am worried that there is more acceptance for traditional Catholic worship (or Conservative) but less interest in traditional Catholic doctrine. I see many priests less condemnatory of the Traditional Mass, but I wonder if it's true liberalism (=couldn't care less) creeping in. In England there are many traditional Masses, but not always an increase in numbers of laity attending.In my Parish we have the Traditional Mass on three Sundays in the month,but the numbers have not increased over the last three years. I have an awful feeling that many priests and even bishops are growing War Weary and are not bothered about what happens in Church. To give an example, recently we had a modern Jesuit offering Mass in our parish and the week before a Bishop. Both agreed to celebrate Eastward facing, (New Rite) without a whimper of a complaint and did it - by today's standards - carefully and reverently. But, I wonder what it all means. These two clerics may just as happily the next day commit all sorts of strange and weird liturgical goings-on ; maybe not. Are we becoming a Comprehensive Church, which since the Motu Proprio, accommodates even traditionalists - High Low and Middle churchmen ? (Bishop Fellay's Zoo Cage Catholicism is apposite)

We have this exact thing in the NO Church I was talking about. If Fr.R Celebrates Mass youll get a sermon on the evils of abortion and how we must follow our conscience according to the light of the Church and a Mass with a Gold Chalice the Roman Canon used incense and parts sung. If Fr P Celebrates you get a sermon on how the Church needs to accept Homosexuals how Obama is the best President he can remember and how the Church is out of touch for not ordaining women and being against the healthcare bill, and at Mass you get Eucharistic Prayer two and that ad libbed so there is no mention of God in the Male sense etc. and glass cups for The sacred Blood.
Then literally the next week Fr. R we'll say how courageous the Bishops are in standing up to our Catholic politicians who support "the evil obamacare bill" It would be laughable if not so sad. There is a low Church for the liberals and a High Church for the conservatives and this all in the same parish. I think best case scenario is that it will go on like this until the older liberals go away.

How old is Fr. R and how old is Fr. P?

Also if Fr. P is using glass to hold the precious blood or changing the words of the Mass you should inform him that this has been specifically condemned by the Vatican. Sometimes a gentle reminder starts them thinking. The document is called Redemptoris Sacramentum....I think...
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#15
(12-26-2009, 04:24 AM)Baskerville Wrote: Also right now I am unable to attend my SSPX Church so I dont have the TLM to relieve my fear. I dunno. Maybe I am just an ekklesial  hypochondriac. :)

Could be worse.  You could be like me!

-No Catholic friends anywhere near my age living within 100 miles
-working 16-hour shifts on the weekends, thus unable to fulfill a steady Sunday obligaion, and forced to go to Mass on a weekday
-most parishes in the city are NO, save one which holds Mass on Sundays
-the parishes you can go to are usually run by priests who are seemingly indifferent to tradition and the conditions of souls
-no one in your family is Catholic, and they support you in no way whatsoever

Try holding your faith in this environment!


Then again, I'm sure some folks will just call good ol' Laramie a cry baby.  Back to work I go.
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#16
(12-26-2009, 09:49 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:
(12-26-2009, 04:24 AM)Baskerville Wrote: Also right now I am unable to attend my SSPX Church so I dont have the TLM to relieve my fear. I dunno. Maybe I am just an ekklesial  hypochondriac. :)

Could be worse.  You could be like me!

-No Catholic friends anywhere near my age living within 100 miles
-working 16-hour shifts on the weekends, thus unable to fulfill a steady Sunday obligaion, and forced to go to Mass on a weekday
-most parishes in the city are NO, save one which holds Mass on Sundays
-the parishes you can go to are usually run by priests who are seemingly indifferent to tradition and the conditions of souls
-no one in your family is Catholic, and they support you in no way whatsoever

Try holding your faith in this environment!


Then again, I'm sure some folks will just call good ol' Laramie a cry baby.  Back to work I go.

Offer it up.
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#17
Offering it up is one thing.
Attending a sacrelege is another.
Its simple. Avoid the NOike the plague it is. If u are inable to find a TLM then stay home and make a spiritual communipon instead.

While the moto was a good thong it aslso is a mixed blessing as it has dulled the witsof trads and has as has been shown here with some posts lulled trads into a false sense of security and hope.
Re$ember a bells and smells NO is still the NO. And no matter how much incense they burn it still will be
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#18
(12-26-2009, 08:46 AM)Servus_Maria Wrote: Also if Fr. P is using glass to hold the precious blood or changing the words of the Mass you should inform him that this has been specifically condemned by the Vatican. Sometimes a gentle reminder starts them thinking. The document is called Redemptoris Sacramentum....I think...

Here is the rule:

Presence of Christ in the Eucharistic species in the eyes of the faithful will be avoided. Reprobated, therefore, is any practice of using for the celebration of Mass common vessels, or others lacking in quality, or devoid of all artistic merit or which are mere containers, as also other vessels made from glass, earthenware, clay, or other materials that break easily. This norm is to be applied even as regards metals and other materials that easily rust or deteriorate.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congre...um_en.html
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#19
Any improvement (from a trad perspective) is spotty and anecdotal at best.

Most may recall from other posts that I moved cross-country this year and had to spend a couple of months in our new area church-shopping like Protestants.  The NO parishes were wretched....just as bad, if not worse, than the Kumbaya "Masses" everywhere else.

However - and before I say this, let me re-state, yes, a reverent NO is still just an NO - at one parish, we found a Latin NO.  The good news there is not the Mass in and of itself but in the fact that in addition to the pastor, we have had several visiting and fill-in celebrants, all of whom have competently and reverently said ad orientem Masses.

The improvement here is the fact that getting a Latin Mass, ad orientem, following the rubrics to the letter, has NOT depended on just one priest.  At least there are several priests of the same mold.  It's a small start, but it's a start.

Now having said that, I also mentioned in another thread that our pastor just resigned, and we're living in fear that we'll go to Mass Sunday and find out that Father Ponytail is the new pastor.  So any improvement can be reversed. Sic transit gloria mundi.
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#20
The revolution continues. Any other reading of the situation in the Church is naïve at its best.
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