Randy Engel's book Rite of sodomy
#21
(12-30-2009, 01:06 PM)Michael_G Wrote: This is quite an unpleasant thread.  Several of the posts evidently assume that someone with a homosexual disposition is inherently ill-disposed, will inevitably give physical expression to his sexual desires and will by definition form part of a homosexual conspiracy. 

Since homosexuality or sodomy is a grave disorder, it affects both body and soul. Someone suffering from this condition is not a sane individual.
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#22
(12-30-2009, 01:25 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: Since homosexuality or sodomy is a grave disorder, it affects both body and soul. Someone suffering from this condition is not a sane individual.
Sodomy is an action.  Homosexuality is a disposition.  From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
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#23
Such unsupported accusations should nt be bandied about without solid evidence. As a "plain Monsignor" Monitini was one of the most important members of the Curia during the Papacy of Pius XII. The latter did not appoint a Cardinal Secretary of State (the position he had himself held under his predecessor) after the death in 1944 of Cardinal Magline and throughout the 2nd World War Mgr Montini, who had served directly under the then Cardinal Pacelli as Sosituto for Ordinary Affairs,  held the same position being appointed along with the future Cardinal Tardini as joint head of the Secretariat of State. He held this psition until being appopinted Archbishop of Milan in 1954. Montini was hated by both the left and right - he was an uncompromising anti-Fascist and indefatigable in his support for those persecuted for cmmunism. It was he who arranged the rescue of tens of thousands of refugees.

Pius VI is unfairly blamed for the worst reforms of the 2nd Vatican Council, but is responsibile for failing to stand up to the liberal progressives who abused the changes by forcing changes such as the vernacular Mass. He was also over hasty in his unnecessary reforms of the Vatican court, etc, but it was not he but his immediate successor who - for example - did away with the Papal coronation (which Paul VI had made mandatory in the 1975 Church Constitution). .

Paul VI was not a liberal as we understand this to mean in the present era; he did not support women priests, the end of priestly celibacy, the ordination of active homosexuals, etc. Neither was he the instigator of many of the changes that were ultimately  adopted by the Council - although Pius XII had expected Montini rather than Roncalli to succeed him, this was perhaps because both of them came from the same Curia and social background and shared so much. Montini, however, had been on the sharp end of dealing with the very different post War world and felt it was essential that the Church engage more with other Christian Churches. JP I and JP II were the first Popes to be elected from outside the Curia since Pius X (Roncalli, John XXIII had spent most of his later career as a Nuncio) and had a very different perspective to their predecessors - but that too was a weakness. I do not believe that any Papabili Cardinal could have changed the course set by John XXIII - indeed had the latter lived I doubt the result would have been much different. The present Pontiff was himself at the heart of these changes and it has taken forty years to revrese the abuses, because it is those which most traditionalists surely object to. The wholesale abandonment of Catholic liturgical practices - kneeling for communion, rceeiving it on the tongue, genuflecting before the Blessed Sacrament, the failure to make the sign of the cross when appropriate, etc, were certainly not favoured by Paul VI but are the fault in the US and elsewhere of a lax and often incompetent Episcpacy, the majority of whom were appointed by John Paul II.
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#24
I'm in agreement with you Guy Sainty, anyone who alleges Pius VI has any culpability for any VII reforms is wrong on so many levels.  :laughing:
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#25
So you look to say that the stance of Randy Engel about Paul VI as an active homosexual is pure slander?
Mrs Engel even dared to say that this perversion "clouded his mind" and so could partially explain his catastrophic reign. Also she suspected that he was blackmailed due to this vice.
Was Montini homosexual or not? That is the question.
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#26
Guy,
In addition I recommend that you read Don Villa's book "Paul VI beatified?"
Certainly you will change your mind about this pope who was the worst we had since centuries.
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#27
Homosexual or not, the point is whether the person gives in to it or fights it, the same goes for hetro priests that give in to their base natures.
However, the traditional priesthood imposed obvious restraints on hetro priests, but not so much for homo ones, because they have to socialize and live among men.

This is where the problem for homo priests that are not fully devoted can lead them and the Church into trouble.
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#28
(12-30-2009, 03:26 PM)maso Wrote: So you look to say that the stance of Randy Engel about Paul VI as an active homosexual is pure slander?
Mrs Engel even dared to say that this perversion "clouded his mind" and so could partially explain his catastrophic reign. Also she suspected that he was blackmailed due to this vice.
Was Montini homosexual or not? That is the question.

Given what we have gone through since I'd bet a penny to a pound he was.  There are plenty of queers in the Church and one of them is bound to be elected Pope at some point in history.
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#29
(12-30-2009, 11:57 PM)ggreg Wrote:
(12-30-2009, 03:26 PM)maso Wrote: So you look to say that the stance of Randy Engel about Paul VI as an active homosexual is pure slander?
Mrs Engel even dared to say that this perversion "clouded his mind" and so could partially explain his catastrophic reign. Also she suspected that he was blackmailed due to this vice.
Was Montini homosexual or not? That is the question.

Given what we have gone through since I'd bet a penny to a pound he was.  There are plenty of queers in the Church and one of them is bound to be elected Pope at some point in history.
whether he was or wasn't is kind of irrelevant.  he was the pope because that's who the Holy Spirit chose to lead the Church, gay or not.  isn't that what we Catholics are required to believe about papal elections?
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#30
Let's say he was bad news, gay, responsible for the worst 'refoms' of VII-- why the unwavering stance on birth control? ???

All Humanum Vitae did was alienate him from 'reformers,' lib theologians, and even rank and file (then) young priests and seminarians.
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