New GIRM?
#51
(12-28-2009, 03:43 PM)Petertherock Wrote: As for kneelers, our priest told us that up until the middle ages Catholics were forbidden to kneel on Sundays because kneeling was associated with service. In fact servants would kneel before their master and the master would put his foot on them as a sign of power. It wasn't until the middle ages that people started kneeling at Mass.

Additional: During the early Church it was an honor to be able to "stand before our God" so people stood instead of knelt.

The priest who stated this was not too far off. (I'm not sure where he got the "servant" part though).  However, at the First Ecumenical Council -318 AD- Canon XX states the following:

"Forasmuch as there are certain persons who kneel on the Lord’s Day and in the days of Pentecost, therefore, to the intent that all things may be uniformly observed everywhere (in every parish), it seems good to the holy Synod that prayer be made to God standing."

"http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.vii.vi.xxx.html

"On Lord’s days and at Pentecost all must pray standing and not kneeling."- Epitome of Canon XX

Remember too, there were no pews or kneelers in the early days.  Pews were a much later addition in the Roman Church and still do not exist for many in the Eastern Rite.

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#52
(12-28-2009, 05:14 PM)Petertherock Wrote: I know for a fact the National Shrine in Washington DC has gift shops, restaurants, and coffee shops in it. I wouldn't be surprised if those buildings I posted pictures of also have shops and coffee shops in them too.

And so did churches in the Middle Ages.  The church building was quite often the center of life, and as such, it often had shops and restaurants.  Go to churches in Europe and take a guided tour.  They will show you the spaces in the building or in the complex that were used for shops of various types.
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#53
(12-29-2009, 12:14 PM)HolySouls Wrote: And so did churches in the Middle Ages.  The church building was quite often the center of life, and as such, it often had shops and restaurants.  Go to churches in Europe and take a guided tour.  They will show you the spaces in the building or in the complex that were used for shops of various types.

I consider myself a medievalist, but I confess that I wouldn't want everything in the Church to be just as it was in the Middle Ages. Sometimes commerce was had within the nave itself, or plays were performed in the sanctuary. It does go to show, though, as I've been saying in many threads, that much of this post-Vatican II crap isn't new.
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#54
(12-29-2009, 09:59 AM)Credo Wrote:
Vetus Ordo Wrote:It's been almost 40 years since the Council and these travesties continue to happen daily worldwide.

Just as a point of illumination, forty years is nothing. It's a blip on the screen of Church history.

Sure, but the Church consists in large part of individual souls, and 40 years is at least a generation, maybe two, and it's a lifetime in some cases.  And it's certainly long enough to create a Lost Generation of under-catechetized, Protestantized Catholics.
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#55
(12-29-2009, 07:47 PM)DesperatelySeeking Wrote: Sure, but the Church consists in large part of individual souls, and 40 years is at least a generation, maybe two, and it's a lifetime in some cases.  And it's certainly long enough to create a Lost Generation of under-catechetized, Protestantized Catholics.

Worldwide the number of Catholics was 653 million in 1970 (18% of the total population of the world) today it is 1140 million (17% of the total population of the world)  Why do you suppose that all new Catholics (almost 500 million) are lost? What is the reson of their life? To live a life which pleases God, or to parrot some ideas what you like?

It is true, that Western Catholics are bad, just like the other Christians, pagans etc. too. But we represent only less than 25% percent of the total, if we are lost, the rest will serve God's cause without us.
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#56
(12-29-2009, 08:04 PM)glgas Wrote:
(12-29-2009, 07:47 PM)DesperatelySeeking Wrote: Sure, but the Church consists in large part of individual souls, and 40 years is at least a generation, maybe two, and it's a lifetime in some cases.  And it's certainly long enough to create a Lost Generation of under-catechetized, Protestantized Catholics.
Why do you suppose that all new Catholics (almost 500 million) are lost? What is the reson of their life? To live a life which pleases God, or to parrot some ideas what you like?

No, that's a misinterpretation of what I said.  "Lost" not in terms of their eternal souls, but in terms of having at the Church's hands lost the inheritance of centuries of liturgical tradition and doctrinal clarity.  Their lives, as any lives, have the same reason.....to know, love, and serve God.

When polls show that 70% of (nominal) American Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence, I think it's a fair statement to say that there's a generation or two of Catholics out there that are cut loose from the moorings of their faith.
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#57
DesperatelySeeking Wrote:When polls show that 70% of (nominal) American Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence

If this is the same poll from a few years ago -- the 1992 S. Augustine Center/Gallup Poll -- which I'm thinking of, then the way the pollsters asked the question regarding the Real Presence was misleading.

The follow are the options which those being queried had to choose from, and the final breakdown of the participants. Even the best read among us would be tripped-up by the wording of the poll:

1) 29% of Catholics believe that when receiving Holy Communion, they are receiving bread and wine, which symbolize the spirit and teachings of Jesus Christ, and in so doing are expressing their attachment to His Person and words,

2) 24% of Catholics believe that when receiving Holy Communion, they are receiving the Body and Blood of Christ, which has become that because of their personal belief,

3) 10% of Catholics believe that when receiving Holy Communion, they are receiving bread and wine, in which Jesus Christ is really and truly present,

4) 8% of Catholics hold some other non-Catholic belief,

5) 30% of Catholics believe that they are really and truly receiving the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ under the appearance of Bread and Wine.

Here is a quote from an article dealing with that misleading poll, followed by a link to the full article:

First Things Wrote:There are also items of real interest. For instance, 81 percent say that “belief that Jesus is really present in the Eucharist” is essential in their understanding of the Catholic faith. Keep in mind that the survey is of a cross section of the 65 million Catholics in the U.S. (although Latinos are greatly underrepresented). Among the more highly committed Catholics, it is reasonable to assume that belief in the Real Presence is considerably higher than 81 percent. This is worth keeping in mind because some years ago a clumsily worded question in a survey came up with the conclusion that only one third of Catholics believed in the Real Presence, and that “finding” still crops up in discussions on the state of Catholicism. Among active Catholics, belief in the Real Presence, as also in the Incarnation, the Virgin Birth, and the Resurrection of Jesus, edges up toward unanimity.

Original article: American Catholics and Catholic Americans - http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2...nd-catholi

The point is that we really need to be careful before regurgitating info which is faulty at best.
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#58
(12-30-2009, 09:03 PM)Credo Wrote:
DesperatelySeeking Wrote:When polls show that 70% of (nominal) American Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence

If this is the same poll from a few years ago -- the 1992 S. Augustine Center/Gallup Poll -- which I'm thinking of, then the way the pollsters asked the question regarding the Real Presence was misleading.

OK, since I mentioned it, I guess it's fair if you want to take a stand against my specific example.

Let me try again......would you say yes or no to the broad question, "Is the currently 40 and under generation of Catholics generally well-catechized?".  My answer to that is "No", and by answering no, neither am I implying that pre-Vatican II every single Catholic worldwide could reel off the Baltimore Catechism with their eyes closed.

So, based on your answer to that question, do you agree with my preceding statement a couple of posts ago that there is a generation of Catholics adrift from the basic tenets of the Faith?
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#59
(12-31-2009, 08:11 PM)DesperatelySeeking Wrote: Let me try again......would you say yes or no to the broad question, "Is the currently 40 and under generation of Catholics generally well-catechized?".  My answer to that is "No", and by answering no, neither am I implying that pre-Vatican II every single Catholic worldwide could reel off the Baltimore Catechism with their eyes closed.

So, based on your answer to that question, do you agree with my preceding statement a couple of posts ago that there is a generation of Catholics adrift from the basic tenets of the Faith?

What is the comparison to?

How educated and knowledgable of specific doctrine should Catholics be?
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#60
(12-31-2009, 08:18 PM)Rosarium Wrote:
(12-31-2009, 08:11 PM)DesperatelySeeking Wrote: Let me try again......would you say yes or no to the broad question, "Is the currently 40 and under generation of Catholics generally well-catechized?".  My answer to that is "No", and by answering no, neither am I implying that pre-Vatican II every single Catholic worldwide could reel off the Baltimore Catechism with their eyes closed.

So, based on your answer to that question, do you agree with my preceding statement a couple of posts ago that there is a generation of Catholics adrift from the basic tenets of the Faith?

What is the comparison to?

How educated and knowledgable of specific doctrine should Catholics be?

I'm talking basics here....being familiar with the concept of (not being able to explain in theological detail) the Trinity; the veneration of Mary; the idea that the Church is made up of the militant, triumphant, and suffering; understanding that, yes, you really can go to Hell; familiarity with a basic set of Catholic prayers; the Real Presence.

Do people need to memorize a list of the corporal and spiritual works of mercy to be "real" Catholics?  No.  That's a Pharisaical concentration on minutiae.

But there's a generation of Catholics, including me, that spent their time in CCD for First Communion and for Confirmation making construction-paper rainbows, as if that were somehow the way to get an education in the spiritual life.  I went to an extremely expensive private Catholic high school, and the same for college.......8 years with at least 1 Religion class per semester....all I ever got was nondenominational pabulum about "loving my neighbor" and social justice.

In my experience, this is pretty typical for Catholics my age.
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