Is Our Lady a Sede?
(12-30-2009, 05:37 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: However, correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember reading somewhere that bishops may lose their jurisdiction because of public heresy. Since jurisdiction does not serve itself but a higher purpose - salus animarum - it would be expectable that a bishop may lose jurisdiction, his own office, in virtue of public heresy.
The only way a bishop looses his jurisdiction is if the Church takes it away or he resigns and gives it up. Just because a bishop is a heretic does not mean he looses his jurisdiction. The Church has to declare him a heretic in writing with canonical sanctions, a trial, and then removal.

The Irish bishops recently lost their jurisdiction because they resigned. Some of them were heretics, but only ceased being active bishops due their official resignation because of the Murphy report.
(12-30-2009, 05:52 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: For the record, that is not true. Still, we can't discuss it here.

Speaking of not discussing, I think this thread will just invite such conversation. Perhaps it should be closed now the original issue is over?

Quis? I'll let you get the last post if you close it now.

(Somehow, I don't think that is that enticing, but it is the best I can do).
(12-30-2009, 05:17 PM)SaintRafael Wrote: Heretical or apostate clergy are still clergy. They don't loose their office, they just loose their faith. That is two different things.  You can have clergyman with the jurisdiction that comes with their office, but for all purposes they are Atheist in their beliefs.

If one denies any dogma of the Church, he is a heretic. If he is a heretic, he cannot be part of the Church. If he cannot be part of the Church, how can he hold an office in it? Latae sententiae ("given [already passed] sentence") excommunication is incurred immediately after the acceptance of any heretical teaching or rejection of any Church dogma. To the Invisible Head of the Church (God), this soul is no longer part of Mystical Body of Christ. However, we may not know this as a matter of objective truth until the visible head of the Church (the pope) declares it so by means of a ferendae sententiae excommunication.

Still, one can be objectively excluded from the Church though not yet visibly separated from it by means of the competent ecclesiastic authority (ferendae lententiae). The Church can't formally, and by means of ferendae lententiae excommunication, put on trial everyone who denies a dogma of the Church. God as the Invisible Head knows who is in the Church and who is not. But the visible head of the Church does not have to declare someone to be excommunicated (ferendae sententiae) for it to be objectively true by means of latae sententiae excommunication.
Well, I think Rosarium's spider sense is correct and this conversation is headed in a direction we can't go.  So, relocking.

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