Belgium's Most Conservative Bishop, Selected by the Pope, Personally
#21
(01-14-2010, 05:17 AM)Unum Sint Wrote: To whom will you run Vetus when VII gets clarified and reaffirmed and the SSPX is reconciled to the Church and every church in the world celebrate the Tridentine as well as a reformed Novus Ordo? What fringe group will run to?

Even if your scenario does come true, there will still be "fringe groups" of catholics that won''t have sold out to Modernism, like there were "fringe groups" back in the 60's that rejected the revolution. Some people value the acceptation and respect of the world over their own faith, while others don't. As I said, it's a battle to the death. You seem to be afraid of "fringe groups", I'm afraid of "large groups" full of apostates and heretics.

Unlike your ridiculous rant, I'm not saying you belong to any of those camps. I haven't made up my mind about you yet but I know where I stand.

Oh, and let me clarify you the following: the SSPX is in the Church, they don't need to be "reconciled" to anything. The only ones who need reconciling are the ones who deviated from the faith.
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#22
(01-13-2010, 09:11 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-13-2010, 08:43 PM)DarkKnight Wrote: Don't be a buzz-kill and enjoy the party. Let's just chalk it up to sloppy reporting and continue the celebration; eh?

There is seldom reason to celebrate nowadays. We live in dangerous times, times where the Church has been ransacked from top to bottom by heretics and apostates of all sorts. By the mercy of God, we were chosen to live in this age of perversion, certainly as a penance for our innumerable sins and as an opportunity to bear witness to Our Lord.

(01-13-2010, 08:43 PM)DarkKnight Wrote: Did you miss this part?
Quote:According to Tornielli, he is a friend of the Immemorial Mass of All Ages, strong in matters of pro-life and is an uncompromising conservative with a backround as a Moral Theologian.

This doesn't tell us much, really. Just like the Pope, His Excellency certainly celebrates the Novus Ordo mass among other things pertaining to the new church. Being an ecclesia dei friend, assuming he's even one of them, doesn't qualify as being a "friend of Tradition". Friends of tradition are all those people, clergy and laity, who chose persecution and humiliation rather than going along in the destruction of the Church. The real friends of Tradition don't confuse the cause (modernism) with the effects (the new church). This is not a battle for "smells and bells", much less a battle to have Tradition "recognized" by the new church: to have an official status on par with modernism. What an aberration that would be! "What harmony is there between Christ and Belial?". Indeed, this is a fight to the death between the friends of Christ and the friends of Satan.

Conservatives of today are just the liberals of tomorrow. No reason to cheer.

I can see where you are coming from, but the reason to be happy (I am not "cheering" since this is a very small victory) is that it might indicate that B16 has some good will towards tradition and is not merely trying to be an all inclusive liberal.  It is certainly not a bad event to have a conservative who likes the old mass raised to the status of Archbishop.  Some of the ecclesia dei types are very friendly to the SSPX - off the record.  I know ED priests who tell parishoners to go to the SSPX masses rather than miss mass or go to a new mass.  Unless we are closet SVs then we have to see the bright side when the Novus Ordo Church (as crap as it is) raises a conservative to a more powerful position.
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#23
(01-14-2010, 07:24 AM)ggreg Wrote: Unless we are closet SVs then we have to see the bright side when the Novus Ordo Church (as crap as it is) raises a conservative to a more powerful position.

Again, a conservative is no better than a liberal. Error is error. A conservative, by definition, is not a traditionalist, nor a friend of Tradition. You can't cheer the fact that there are conservatives being appointed archbishops and then, at the same time, deplore the conservatives hatred towards Tradition. By conservative, I mean Opus Dei types as well as Ecclesia Dei ones.

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#24
(01-14-2010, 05:17 AM)Unum Sint Wrote: No Vetus you are just the perfect example of the very angry Rad Trad that will never be happy with anything except for returning the Church to the Middle Ages which in it of it self would not be bad I think most people here including my self would like to see a strong West, but its over time passed the reformation happened faith is no longer important in the west as a matter of the State.

The Church does not turn on 90 degree angles, and when it does its never permanent hence the Novus Ordo and how it will not survive the next 50 years in its current form.

To whom will you run Vetus when VII gets clarified and reaffirmed and the SSPX is reconciled to the Church and every church in the world celebrate the Tridentine as well as a reformed Novus Ordo? What fringe group will run to?

Wherever he runs if I were God I'd have a hard time condemning him for it if it were done out of a state of utter frustration and confusion.  If Vatican II just gets brushed under the carpet, or airbrushed from history, then why should any Catholic really care about things going wrong with the faith?  In time it will all get fixed and worked out so why worry about it.

What you are suggesting is the equivalent of the Church shuffling paedo priests around and covering up their nafarious activities for fear of scandal.  It is like the Russians refusing to acknowledge or make reparation for the 40 million people they murdered in the gulug system.   The whole Vatican 2 disaster must have cost at least 100 million souls at a bare minimum.  If that is just airbrushed from history by the hierarchy and they carry on regardless then I would not want to be part of any church they were in charge of.  I'd lapse.

I can't see how the Catholic Church will retain any credibility unless the whole Vatican II mess is exposed for what it was and there is a blood payment made for wrongs that have been perpetrated in its name.  Frankly if your scenario were to happen above I'd lose any belief in the lives of the saints because I'd wonder whether they were just all made up or tidied up for the sake of the good reputation of the Church at the time.  After all the Church had the power to do that in the past.  One thinks that it had the justice to make sure that the stories we were told were not utter fabrications.

The truth matters, justice matters and if nobody is held to account in this life after what has happened in the last 50 years then frankly I'll seriously begin to wonder whether God cares about what happens on this Earth to His Church.
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#25
(01-14-2010, 07:31 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-14-2010, 07:24 AM)ggreg Wrote: Unless we are closet SVs then we have to see the bright side when the Novus Ordo Church (as crap as it is) raises a conservative to a more powerful position.

Again, a conservative is no better than a liberal. Error is error. A conservative, by definition, is not a traditionalist, nor a friend of Tradition. You can't cheer the fact that there are conservatives being appointed archbishops and then, at the same time, deplore the conservatives hatred towards Tradition. By conservative, I mean Opus Dei types as well as Ecclesia Dei ones.

Not all conservatives are the same.  Based on what we appear to know about this Belgian Archbishop why would you assume he has a hatred towards Tradition?

It sounds to me like if a young traditionally minded priest wrote and asked him for his blessing to say the old mass on a Sunday that this Archbishop would say, "go for it".  Surely that is better than a bishop who says, "no" or a bishop who says, "any other day - but not Sunday".

Labels are convenient for internet forums but in reality we all harbour some conservative, some traditional and even a few liberal ideas.  Even JP2 wasn't pro contraception or pro-abortion, in that sense the world saw him as ultra-conservative or even Traditional though people like you and I saw him as a liberal.  I am sure you could find Cardinals in the Church who if made Pope would want to have gay priests, women priests and Catholic Abortions before the end of their papacy notwithstanding the Holy Spirit bumping them off before they had the chance.
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#26
(01-14-2010, 07:52 AM)ggreg Wrote: Not all conservatives are the same.  Based on what we appear to know about this Belgian Archbishop why would you assume he has a hatred towards Tradition?

Of course not, conservatives are not all the same. But then again, liberals are not all the same, catholics are not all the same, muslims are not all the same, jews are not all the same, etc., it's a tautology and we shouldn't waste time on it. Regardless of their personal preferences or leanings, conservatives do not oppose the new mass, the new sacraments, the new Theology and the new evangelization (or ecumenism). They still want the new church but a new church more conservative and not in so evident rupture with the past as the one we have now. It's deceptive and dangerous and that's why many fall for this trap. All of this makes them enemies of Tradition and therefore enemies of Christ.
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#27
(01-13-2010, 08:32 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: What exactly did His Excellency do to deserve the "rejoicing of Traditionalists everywhere"?

Conservatives are actually enemies of Tradition.

The very sad fact is that the trads are an extremely divided conglomeration, who usually define themselves by negatives.

As for bishop Leonard, a short google search brought up, that.

- he came out from a homophobe charge by some compromise

- he was associated with the Opus Dei, at least made a speech on one of their conference.

Neither fact means that he would be the enemy of the tradition

What do you know what we do not?

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#28
(01-14-2010, 01:06 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-13-2010, 09:55 PM)franklinf Wrote: I should have been more clear in what I mean. By "right path" I meant to conversion to Catholicism. If one already believes some of the Truths, then one is on the right path to conversion - particularly when compared to an "open enemy of God."

My point was that they're both enemies of God. The muslim already believes in some truths too - the oneness of God, some moral precepts, etc. One could argue that after rejecting the absurdity of the mohammedan claim to truthfulness, he may be more disposed to embrace Catholicism than the protestant. The protestant has a strong bias against the Catholic Church, the whore of Babylon to him, so the particular creed he professes that claims to acknowledge Christ may be even more detrimental to his conversion than the mohammedan creed that rejects Him.

However, the plain truth is that they're both hell-bound by professing the creeds they profess. There's no degrees of "less-falsity" here in terms of our heavenly goal. Something is wrong even if it is 99,9% right. To claim that a person who believes in a 99,9% true creed is more disposed to the truth than one who believes in a 0,1% true creed is nothing but a mere pious conjecture. In fact, something 99,9% right is far more insidious and detrimental to the acceptance of Truth.

(01-13-2010, 09:55 PM)franklinf Wrote: Thats why I think its good this bishop is appointed. Much better to have one friendly to / open to Tradition than one not. Greater chance of fully converting the former, as already halfway there (heart / mind isn't closed to it).

Or, then again, he might be an obstacle to true restoration. One can only guess. In the meantime, there's nothing objectively sound to cheer about.

I have to disagree with you - you need to be realistic. Not everyone converts immediately. Like I said, if someone is on the path to conversion, wouldn't it make sense that they understand some of the Truths, but not all? Or do you expect people to go from heathen to Catholic in a blink of an eye?

I agree that 'as is' they are both enemies of God. But more truth is always better than less truth. To say otherwise is conjecture on your part.

I'm not saying there are "degrees of less-falsity." What I am saying, is that true belief has to start somewhere. People don't do 180s, they discover Truth. The more they learn and search, they more they approach HMC. I think you need to stop looking at it like its a snapshot in time and more like its a path towards Truth. Does this apply to all protestants? No, just like all protestants don't believe the Catholic Church is the whore of babylon.

And I really don't see how this isn't something objectively to cheer about. There has been 50 years of bad. I think we need to take a victory like this and welcome the new bishop. The pope  selected a bishop who is friendly to and celebrates the TLM. That is far superior to a novus ordo bishop who wants nothing to do with it. We need bishops who welcome and accept the TLM so that it can spread through the diocesan structure, b/c lets face it a lot of people aren't going to go to SSPX. Also we need to face the fact that there is a very high probability that the NO won't be done away with immediately. That is why steps like this are important.
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#29
(01-14-2010, 08:34 AM)glgas Wrote: - he was associated with the Opus Dei, at least made a speech on one of their conference.

What do you know what we do not?

You said it yourself, he's associated with Opus Dei, an enemy of Tradition by its own right.
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#30
(01-14-2010, 08:36 AM)franklinf Wrote: [I agree that 'as is' they are both enemies of God. But more truth is always better than less truth. To say otherwise is conjecture on your part.

The conjecture is on your part, actually. There is no "more truth" and "less truth": there is truth and falsehood. A conservative, just like a liberal, believes in falsehood.

As for my expectations, I only expect that bishops and priests be catholic, nothing more. A rather reasonable expectation, yet very hard to meet in the new church.
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