How the Average Pewsitter Views the SSPX
#51
(01-15-2010, 01:31 PM)cgraye Wrote: The average pewsitter has never heard of the SSPX, doesn't even know the TLM is still said or even what it is, and does not care about any of these issues, frankly.

Agreed and whatever is said is usually gossip mongering from the pulpit. As a FSSP adherent, don't get me started on the constant confusion and mix-ups between the two Societies.
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#52
(01-15-2010, 07:05 PM)Scipio_a Wrote:
(01-15-2010, 01:26 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: http://eponymousflower.blogspot.com/2010...neral.html

This has been addressed ad nauseum...


No, she is not one of us...not if she has the option of a TLM and runs off to "communion" and "reconciliation"...LOL

I would not be so sure that she IS Catholic...it's only a matter of time....we believe as we pray...she prays differently so she probably believes differently...she does not respond to the graces available to her to see the SSPX in it's true light...FULLY CATHOLIC...thus she is probably not

Well said..except for the  parts questioning her Catholicity, which is too speculative..We do not know the soul of this individual...
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#53
(01-16-2010, 02:01 AM)Mac_Giolla_Bhrighde Wrote:
(01-15-2010, 01:31 PM)cgraye Wrote: The average pewsitter has never heard of the SSPX, doesn't even know the TLM is still said or even what it is, and does not care about any of these issues, frankly.

Agreed and whatever is said is usually gossip mongering from the pulpit. As a FSSP adherent, don't get me started on the constant confusion and mix-ups between the two Societies.

I would like to add that either average or selected pewsitter or even priests has no authority over the SSPX or over anyone else neither. Thet judgment belongs ultimately to our Lord, and temporary to the Magisterium.

Because our Lord will reveal His judgment only  at the end of the World, we should listen to the Magisterium, which is looking for the removal of the supnesion of the SSPX priests, but legally cannot do it, unless they ask for it.

We all shall pray for them, and ask out heavenly Father: Thy will be done.
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#54
The SSPX was unlawfully "suspended" and "excommunicated" to begin with. The only ones who excommunicate themselves by their deeds and actions are the bishops and priests of the new Church.
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#55
(01-15-2010, 10:44 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote:
(01-15-2010, 07:05 PM)Scipio_a Wrote: I would not be so sure that she IS Catholic...it's only a matter of time....we believe as we pray...she prays differently so she probably believes differently...she does not respond to the graces available to her to see the SSPX in it's true light...FULLY CATHOLIC...thus she is probably not

That's over the line.  If someone is validly baptized and professes the faith, they are Catholic until a competent authority declares otherwise.   And in the case of latae sententiae, etc., we still do not have the authority to pronounce that it has been incurred.

So, knock it off. 

Oddly the entire thread is dedicated to the question "Is she one of us?

If you read my first post here...I took that to mean "is she a sort of quasi trady minded Catholic with an orthodox understanding?",  that's pretty clear from my second line where I address TLM attendence

I did not "officially" pronounce her "Not Catholic"

I could make a one word change here to the statement I made.

my statement could be rewritten to change "probably" to "possibly" if that makes anyone read it more easily.  But she still should be viewed with a modicum of suspicion on that score...and that is personal experience...even with my children's godparents...their mix of NO usually leads them to a faulty understanding...and later a faulty belief.   And at that point where are they?  that's a rhetorical question.


so the question at the OP was "is she one of us?"...and my answer is still no.


Now the question could be put forward in a new thread "Is there ever a time when an NO Catholic is one of us?"  (a quasi trady minded orthodox Catholic)

Some of the hard cases would say no, not ever

Some of the easy go luckys would answer yes, always.

I would answer yes there are times...

and then I'd go into a long description (probably not comprehensive) in which an NO is one of us ...(and I'm not talking about trads who attend the NO...we already know many of these who are stuck there...this would be about pure NOs)

It would be easier to list what they could not do and still be one of us ) a list of negative factors...such as not denying dogmas...as you point out...but this would go without saying.

This diatribe listing the positive circumstances of inclusion would include a certain sympathy with the SSPX (my dad is a case in point on this...thinks they're wrong about some things but understands the origin of their dismay...and would even go to a Mass with them if the opportunity presented itself (I do not think that last part is needed...it's just my dad)

Another thing included would for the NO, being sympathetic, to understand, and thus not be upset or take offense at someone choosing to sit in the back of an NO service of any kind and not take communion...the NO might think it wrong headed, but not a point of contention.

It;s funny, because most of the NOs with a mindset similar to this Hock character would not take communion if they found themselves at an SSPX chapel under similar circumstances (Holly may...but most would not...hell, we have self described trads here that will not).  And I don't know any SSPX attendees or priests (NO DOUBT THERE ARE SOME) who would find the actions of sitting in the back and not taking communion to be divisive...most would be understanding of the long road to the Faith that that person may be getting ready to embark upon...we'd all just be ever so glad that that person had been exposed to the Mass finally.


Would I be happy if Holly were to become "one of us" or better..a trad, absolutly...but she's never going to get there hidding behind an invite only blog where she bad mouths trads.

The easier thing for her to do...if she really is interested (and I think she may be) is to ask the question "how did you all get to where you are?"

She would see a lot of reasonable explanation and a decent reading list and my Mass attendance method for beginners.  But the fact is...she has to show the interest...none of the stories or reading and possibly not even the Mass attendance advice (although that may be open to question due to the divine nature it...Mass and all you know) will work on a hard heart or one determined to be against trads or the SSPX


NOW that WOULD be a great experiment

Holly would you be willing to be scipio's FIRST FULL ON NOVUS ORDO guinea pig?...I promise there are no shots or funny lotions to rub on to see if you get any side effects!!!!

The experiment would be YOU...YOU going soley to SSPX Masses (SSPX in your case...I usually leave it open to FSSP and others but this is the real deal never tied experiment)

I want you to grow in your Faith and love of the Church...and I think there is a possibility that you will see that Faith and love of the Church that outweighs most all at an SSPX chapel....

ARE YOU GAME FOR THIS?...PM me yea or nay.  If yea, I will send my suggested method for you..at which point you will be free to DECLINE or ACCEPT


WOW, I'm excited at the prospect.
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#56
(01-16-2010, 10:00 AM)Scipio_a Wrote: so the question at the OP was "is she one of us?"...and my answer is still no.


Now the question could be put forward in a new thread "Is there ever a time when an NO Catholic is one of us?"  (a quasi trady minded orthodox Catholic)

Some of the hard cases would say no, not ever

Some of the easy go luckys would answer yes, always.

I would answer yes there are times...

and then I'd go into a long description (probably not comprehensive) in which an NO is one of us ...(and I'm not talking about trads who attend the NO...we already know many of these who are stuck there...this would be about pure NOs)

Could you define what you think a "pure NO" is?

(01-16-2010, 10:00 AM)Scipio_a Wrote: Holly would you be willing to be scipio's FIRST FULL ON NOVUS ORDO guinea pig?...I promise there are no shots or funny lotions to rub on to see if you get any side effects!!!!

The experiment would be YOU...YOU going soley to SSPX Masses (SSPX in your case...I usually leave it open to FSSP and others but this is the real deal never tied experiment)

I want you to grow in your Faith and love of the Church...and I think there is a possibility that you will see that Faith and love of the Church that outweighs most all at an SSPX chapel....

ARE YOU GAME FOR THIS?...PM me yea or nay.  If yea, I will send my suggested method for you..at which point you will be free to DECLINE or ACCEPT


WOW, I'm excited at the prospect.


So, people who assist at Masses by the FSSP or diocesan Masses under jurisdiction of Rome don't count in your experiment?
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#57
Not this time...this is a special case scenario....My method is not typically exclusive to ANY trad organization...The many folks that have used it successfully can tell you that I am not hung up on any one organization for those looking to go TLM,,,,for this experiment there is a specifice organization...that is why I have asked her to PM me about it...


For any, what I consider normal case...as outlined in my previous post...the typical advice applies.
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#58
(01-16-2010, 10:48 AM)lumine Wrote: Could you define what you think a "pure NO" is?
I could but I will not since it is not important here.
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#59
She most definitely is one of "us" and by that I mean Roman Catholic.  Whatever else you might mean, whatever multifarious criteria you choose might mean something to your group, which may or may not be Roman Catholic, and you can hold her to that with corresponding punishments, whatever your juridical status holds in the Catholic Church, but that certainly doesn't hold a lot of water I expect outside of a small number of fish here in the "tank" and it's certainly not the moderator's opinion.

In any event, I think threads like this aren't so much for HER, although they might help in the long run, we hope they help others in her situation, conservative types who are bound to get angry about Fr. Flapdoodle at church.

As it is, she's not reasonable and I wonder how she got that way?  Bad will, is part of it, but she's also willing to lend an ear to the neo-cons who have, as YOU know, been extremely dishonest about the SSPX in the past.

And finally, the SSPX is already being vindicated and like your characterization of her and those like her, her painting the SSPX as "schismatic" doesn't hold a lot of water, and the excoriating attitude of some of the posters here in this forum and elsewhere isn't going to get her to change her mind any time soon.  Maybe when she cools down in a few days, she'll go over the thread and think about it rather than basting in a vat of bile with her "friends" of like mind.
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#60
(01-16-2010, 11:10 AM)Augstine Baker Wrote: She most definitely is one of "us" and by that I mean Roman Catholic.  Whatever else you might mean, whatever multifarious criteria you choose might mean something to your group, which may or may not be Roman Catholic, and you can hold her to that with corresponding punishments, whatever your juridical status holds in the Catholic Church, but that certainly doesn't hold a lot of water I expect outside of a small number of fish here in the "tank" and it's certainly not the moderator's opinion.

What does any of this mean?  My group?  We were not discussing if she's "Catholic" or not but rather her catholicity (for lack of a better word)...two very different things, as Quis pointed out, the criteria to be Catholic is pretty lax...just Baptsm and profession of Faith...that leaves wide latitude for honest mistakes...but it is her and others' catholicity that I have addressed...and it does not take multifariouos criteria...You have no idea what the mods opinion is of my explanation...do you?

Definitely is a strong word for something that is uncertain.

You seem a bit scizo

And finally, no one talked about punishing or anything like that...did you actually read my post, are you just stupid...or do you do this purposely?

You might want to rethink the small number bit...my views reflect to some degree most trads' views...


But let's not divert from the important post above....

Quote:Would I be happy if Holly were to become "one of us" or better..a trad, absolutly...but she's never going to get there hidding behind an invite only blog where she bad mouths trads.

The easier thing for her to do...if she really is interested (and I think she may be) is to ask the question "how did you all get to where you are?"

She would see a lot of reasonable explanation and a decent reading list and my Mass attendance method for beginners.  But the fact is...she has to show the interest...none of the stories or reading and possibly not even the Mass attendance advice (although that may be open to question due to the divine nature it...Mass and all you know) will work on a hard heart or one determined to be against trads or the SSPX


NOW that WOULD be a great experiment

Holly would you be willing to be scipio's FIRST FULL ON NOVUS ORDO guinea pig?...I promise there are no shots or funny lotions to rub on to see if you get any side effects!!!!

The experiment would be YOU...YOU going soley to SSPX Masses (SSPX in your case...I usually leave it open to FSSP and others but this is the real deal never tied experiment)

I want you to grow in your Faith and love of the Church...and I think there is a possibility that you will see that Faith and love of the Church that outweighs most all at an SSPX chapel....

ARE YOU GAME FOR THIS?...PM me yea or nay.  If yea, I will send my suggested method for you..at which point you will be free to DECLINE or ACCEPT


WOW, I'm excited at the prospect.
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