Pope John Paul II meditating on the Tarot?
#11
(01-28-2010, 03:58 PM)SaintRafael Wrote:
(01-28-2010, 03:48 PM)Bonifacius Wrote: Popes need to read all sorts of crap. 
Popes only have to read what they are required to read to perform their duty as Pope. Books given by friends as a gift are just that, a gift that no Pope is under any obligation to read, especially when it is demonic and against the Catholic faith.

Tarot cards started out as a normal deck of cards.  Then they were used for cartomancy and the images on them changed to fit that purpose.  It's the cartomancy that is demonic - otherwise if you play poker with them they are fine.  Though some of the images on them are infernal as well.

In any case, I doubt the book is about Tarot cards meaning the playing cards.  For sure it is about the esoteric since the book refers to hermeticism.

But what exactly is in the book?  I know the Church affected tarot cards because the original deck had a Popess (to match the Pope card) and the Church made the printers get rid of that.  I also know that Hermeticism was very influential on Catholic theology for a time.  Some of the Church Fathers et al. saw Hermes as a pagan coming to an imperfect knowledge of God just as we see Plato and Aristotle doing the same.

Though the books are probably unsavory, it is possible that it's an academic study of that.  Does anyone have a summary of what these books are about?
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#12
(01-28-2010, 04:25 PM)Bonifacius Wrote:
(01-28-2010, 04:11 PM)i.p.i. Wrote:
(01-28-2010, 03:58 PM)SaintRafael Wrote:
(01-28-2010, 03:48 PM)Bonifacius Wrote: Popes need to read all sorts of crap. 
Popes only have to read what they are required to read to perform their duty as Pope. Books given by friends as a gift are just that, a gift that no Pope is under any obligation to read, especially when it is demonic and against the Catholic faith.

a Pope would have legitimate reason to read a book about the tarot given to him by a theologian slated to be given a red hat, knowing that the theologian had written the foreword.  i'd say it would be his duty as Pope to do so.

JP II may have written Von Balthasar a letter telling him to stay away from the tarot,  citing passages from the book.

we don't know so we shouldn't judge.  that's God's job, anyway.

Right!  The Pope is the censor-in-chief of the Church.  So he should have been interested in what a cardinal wrote about something like this.  What, was he supposed to ignore it?  It's his job to be interested in such things, istn't?  More so than it's our job to find out what he's reading.

Then we have proof he didn't read it, because if he did, he would have canned that Cardinal.  :laughing:

Eh, I'm not shocked at books on his desk.  He could read comix for all I care.  I'm more interested in what he did as Pope than what he read as Pope.
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#13
I wonder if he had the Harry Potter and Graham Hancock  series packed away in his junkroom like we do here  ???
bad Catholic  :fish:      bad Catholic!
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#14
(01-28-2010, 03:24 PM)SaintRafael Wrote: Tarot cards are demonic.

Any Catholic examination of conscience pamphlet or book has always been clear that magic, tarot cards, ouija board, astrology, numerology are all part of the occult and is a mortal sin that breaks the first commandment.

according to an article at lifeinitaly.com,

"Milan is the birth place of the Tarot, where it originated in the 15th century as the game of Tarocchi.

These hand painted cards were not intended for divination, but by the 18th century, various divination systems had been devised using the 22 trumps of what had come to be known as the Major Arcana.

But when these cards were first devised, there were only 16 of them, and their first use was in a gambling game.

The game of Tarocchi was similar to Bridge, with the Trump cards used for just that purpose. It is not known exactly when their more esoteric role as a divination tool began, but the Tarot cards as we know them today owe their existence to two ruling families of Milan in the 15th Century, the Visconti and Sforza families."

(emphasis added)

the Church has never opposed playing cards or gambling, as far as i know, and if this article is correct, the Tarot was developed as a new card game, which only later came to be used for divination.  

lots of things that are not in themselves demonic can be used for demonic purposes, though i think that 'reading the Tarot' is more of a game than a demonic exercise to most people, just as reading a horoscope in the newspaper is viewed as entertainment, not a serious predictor of the future.  some people are much deeper into astrology, of course, and take it seriously but even they don't seem to be obsessed by demons, just silly, unscientific ideas.  

another example: chickens.  most people who kill a chicken are going to eat it, but others kill chickens to use in demonic rituals.  is a chicken demonic because some people use it for demonic purposes?

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#15
(01-28-2010, 04:50 PM)SaintRafael Wrote:
(01-28-2010, 04:11 PM)i.p.i. Wrote: a Pope would have legitimate reason to read a book about the tarot given to him by a theologian slated to be given a red hat, knowing that the theologian had written the foreword.  i'd say it would be his duty as Pope to do so.

JP II may have written Von Balthasar a letter telling him to stay away from the tarot,  citing passages from the book.

It is funny how some of you people live in a fantasy world in which Pope John Paul II was this champion of traditionalism and orthodoxy who would put down theologians with condemnations and get rid of error.

i'm certainly not living in such a fantasy world.  i'm from the Pope Pius XII generation and know a lot about all the popes who've lived during my lifetime, have no illusions about John Paul II.

Von Balthasar was a personal friend of Pope JP II until his death. John Paul II never uttered a word against the heretical Von Balthasar. Fr. Fessio once recounted that in a private meeting with JPII, he handed him the catalog of Ignatius Press. Pope John Paul II was overjoyed and thanked Fr. Fessio earnestly for carrying and selling the books and works of Von Balthasar.

you can be friends with someone without agreeing with their opinions.  it's also possible that JP II didn't think Von Balthasar was a heretic, even if he disagreed with him.  was Fr. Fessio telling this story to make John Paul II look like a heretic?  because if he was, that was calumny, especially since he was repeating a private conversation without permission.

Pope John Paul II was going to make Von Balthasar a cardinal, despite his heretical theology, and the foreword to a demonic tarot book. It was only with the grace of God, that God killed Von Balthasar a day before his friend Pope John Paul II could make him a cardinal and prince of the Church. God was not mocked.

maybe he read the book about the tarot and decided not to make him a cardinal.  maybe von balthasar died of shock after he heard he wouldn't get the red hat. 

you don't know and i doubt anyone else does, either, except john paul and von b., possibly Pope Benedict. 

i do not believe God killed von Balthasar to prevent his becoming a cardinal.  if God killed people for  their sins, wouldn't he have killed everyone who ever performed an abortion?  i don't recall God killing anyone for their sins after Old Testament times. 

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#16
(01-28-2010, 05:12 PM)i.p.i. Wrote: lots of things that are not in themselves demonic can be used for demonic purposes, though i think that 'reading the Tarot' is more of a game than a demonic exercise to most people, just as reading a horoscope in the newspaper is viewed as entertainment, not a serious predictor of the future.  some people are much deeper into astrology, of course, and take it seriously but even they don't seem to be obsessed by demons, just silly, unscientific ideas.

You obviously haven't heard many exorcists talk or anything the Church has said on the occult. Tarot cards and astrology are not just "games". Their immediate use puts one at risk for demonic possession of at the very least demonic infestation and bothering. The occult opens the door to the preternatural and demonic world.

The Church, Catholic moral theologians, and Catholic priests, have continued to say that the mere reading of  horoscopes for "fun" is a mortal sin against God and the Catholic faith. A sin against the first commandment. Check any examination of conscience.  

(01-28-2010, 05:12 PM)i.p.i. Wrote: another example: chickens.  most people who kill a chicken are going to eat it, but others kill chickens to use in demonic rituals.  is a chicken demonic because some people use it for demonic purposes?

Chickens are not demonic in itself. It is an animal and used for food. Astrology, tarot cards, and other forms of occultism is demonic in itself. Some people use chickens for demonic purposes contrary to their natural purpose. The occult is by its very nature demonic and cannot be used under any circumstances.
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#17
(01-28-2010, 05:32 PM)SaintRafael Wrote: The Church, Catholic moral theologians, and Catholic priests, have continued to say that the mere reading of  horoscopes for "fun" is a mortal sin against God and the Catholic faith. A sin against the first commandment. Check any examination of conscience.  
To clarify, that only applies for reading them as horoscopes...so the scrupulous out there aren't out there afraid to look at the news paper. I read through them daily before, but only to show that they were not specific to anything and that each one would apply to anyone equally (people for some reason do get angry if you read them the "wrong" horoscope, although they only know if you tell them). I do not get the people who even took them the slightest bit seriously. I had stated to the people who read them that they just cycle through the same ones for all dates because people do not read them all. None were able to contest my statement.

Quote:Chickens are not demonic in itself. It is an animal and used for food. Astrology, tarot cards, and other forms of occultism is demonic in itself. Some people use chickens for demonic purposes contrary to their natural purpose. The occult is by its very nature demonic an cannot be used under any circumstances.
Actually, there is room for wiggling here. Playing cards are descended from less than moral origins (same as tarot cards). However, I think anything marketed as anything bad, is probably bad if it is distinguishable from a benign form of it (so, playing cards are never associated with the occult so they are safe, but I do not think one should use a tarot deck for playing cards, even if the game itself were not bad (memory, or some sorting game) because the cards were designed and marketed for bad).
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#18
(01-28-2010, 05:24 PM)i.p.i. Wrote: maybe he read the book about the tarot and decided not to make him a cardinal.  maybe von balthasar died of shock after he heard he wouldn't get the red hat. 
you don't know and i doubt anyone else does, either, except john paul and von b., possibly Pope Benedict. 
Wow, you are delusional. Pope John Paul II and the Vatican was looking forward to giving him the red hat. The ceremony was prepared and everything was going to schedule. Von Balthasar thought he was going to live and be made a cardinal. Pope John Paul II and the hierarchy expressed regret that he hadn't been made cardinal.  In delivering his eulogy, Cardinal Ratzinger, quoting de Lubac, called Balthasar, "the most cultured man of the twentieth century".

(01-28-2010, 05:24 PM)i.p.i. Wrote: i do not believe God killed von Balthasar to prevent his becoming a cardinal.  if God killed people for  their sins, wouldn't he have killed everyone who ever performed an abortion?  i don't recall God killing anyone for their sins after Old Testament times. 
God is not going to kill every single person immediately for committing a serious sin, because everyone dies eventually. He only kills those whom he sees fit to kill at the moment either for example or to avoid having that person accomplish something contrary to his divine will in time and history.
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#19
(01-28-2010, 05:24 PM)i.p.i. Wrote: i do not believe God killed von Balthasar to prevent his becoming a cardinal.  if God killed people for  their sins, wouldn't he have killed everyone who ever performed an abortion?  i don't recall God killing anyone for their sins after Old Testament times. 

He must've changed His MO, then.
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#20
(01-28-2010, 05:44 PM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote: To clarify, that only applies for reading them as horoscopes...so the scrupulous out there aren't out there afraid to look at the news paper.

If a person doesn't want to commit a mortal sin, he just shouldn't read the horoscopes at all. I can read a newspaper without paying attention to the horoscopes section. If any Catholic notices a horoscope section, he should ignore it. Noticing the horoscope section is not a sin. Reading the horoscopes for whatever reason, is the sin.
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