Pope John Paul II meditating on the Tarot?
#41
(01-28-2010, 07:41 PM)salome Wrote: You need to read St. Basil the Great, St. Isaac of Syria, St. Anthony of the Desert and countless others (first millennium) who argue God is most certainly NOT an angry God who kills people.  To be angry implies he has passions, he is subject to emotions, moods, etc., none of which are characteristics of an all-powerful God.  Instead these are characteristics of man.  This distortion of God has driven many people away from Christianity and I can see why.   

:doh: Not that argument again.

You fail to make a distinction between man and person. Emotions come from a person. A person is not the same thing as a man. We are both men and persons, but there can be persons who are not men. Angels are persons, but not men, because they are pure spirits and are different. There are only two created persons: men and angels.

God is a person. All personhood comes from God, the original uncreated divine person. There is only one divine person. The emotions of God are divine emotions that are part of his essence. They are not human emotions. His emotions are perfect and have always been part of him. God does not change. His essence has always been the same and will always be the same.

Don't blame God for the many people who turn away from him. They do it out of their ignorance, hardness of heart, pride and sinfulness.

The God you are talking about is not the God of the Bible. God himself speaks in the Bible about being the only God, who is a jealous God who had chosen a people, Israel, to be his people. God constantly got angry at Israel throughout the Old Testament and punished them. The prophets constantly spoke about this in their writings and admonishment towards Israel.

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#42
(01-28-2010, 05:55 PM)SaintRafael Wrote:
(01-28-2010, 05:44 PM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote: To clarify, that only applies for reading them as horoscopes...so the scrupulous out there aren't out there afraid to look at the news paper.

If a person doesn't want to commit a mortal sin, he just shouldn't read the horoscopes at all. I can read a newspaper without paying attention to the horoscopes section. If any Catholic notices a horoscope section, he should ignore it. Noticing the horoscope section is not a sin. Reading the horoscopes for whatever reason, is the sin.

Reading them for whatever reason is NOT a sin. That is not in line with Church teaching. One cannot commit a sin just by reading something regardless of the reason.
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#43
(01-28-2010, 08:07 PM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote: Reading them for whatever reason is NOT a sin. That is not in line with Church teaching. One cannot commit a sin just by reading something regardless of the reason.
Yes you are correct. It is possible to read a horoscope, purely as an academic matter, in order to refute it or point out its errors. Reading it for  curiosity is comming pretty close to a sin because there is no reason to read it out of curiosity since the Church has said that it is against the faith.
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#44
(01-28-2010, 02:56 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: First he’s flagellating too much and now he’s into Tarot. All this while destroying Catholicism everywhere.
Is there no end to JPII’s bag of tricks?  ::)

The "Santo Subito" is one extreme; the attempt to demonize him is the other.

This is the post that should have ended this thread.
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#45
(01-28-2010, 07:52 PM)SaintRafael Wrote:
(01-28-2010, 07:41 PM)salome Wrote: You need to read St. Basil the Great, St. Isaac of Syria, St. Anthony of the Desert and countless others (first millennium) who argue God is most certainly NOT an angry God who kills people.  To be angry implies he has passions, he is subject to emotions, moods, etc., none of which are characteristics of an all-powerful God.  Instead these are characteristics of man.  This distortion of God has driven many people away from Christianity and I can see why.   

:doh: Not that argument again.

You fail to make a distinction between man and person. Emotions come from a person. A person is not the same thing as a man. We are both men and persons, but there can be persons who are not men. Angels are persons, but not men, because they are pure spirits and are different. There are only two created persons: men and angels.

God is a person. All personhood comes from God, the original uncreated divine person. There is only one divine person. The emotions of God are divine emotions that are part of his essence. They are not human emotions. His emotions are perfect and have always been part of him. God does not change. His essence has always been the same and will always be the same.

Don't blame God for the many people who turn away from him. They do it out of their ignorance, hardness of heart, pride and sinfulness.

The God you are talking about is not the God of the Bible. God himself speaks in the Bible about being the only God, who is a jealous God who had chosen a people, Israel, to be his people. God constantly got angry at Israel throughout the Old Testament and punished them. The prophets constantly spoke about this in their writings and admonishment towards Israel.

Sure. I'm going to listen to YOU over St. Basil the Great.....riiiiggght....buh bye now.... :pazzo:
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#46
(01-28-2010, 08:16 PM)SaintRafael Wrote: Reading [horoscopes] for  curiosity is comming pretty close to a sin because there is no reason to read it out of curiosity since the Church has said that it is against the faith.

Not disagreeing, but where has the church said that reading horoscopes is against the faith?  IIRC, a good amount of Christian history has looked for guidance from the stars.
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#47
If you looked at my book shelf you would come away thinking I was some kind of pagan because of all the books on the pre-Christian religions of Europe, Celtic/Germanic Mythology, Icelandic Sagas, etc. Until you noticed the large Qur'an in the corner there, and the shelf of Buddhist texts. Then you would get really confused. So I don't think it means anything personally.
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#48
(01-28-2010, 08:33 PM)BrevisVir55 Wrote: If you looked at my book shelf you would come away thinking I was some kind of pagan because of all the books on the pre-Christian religions of Europe, Celtic/Germanic Mythology, Icelandic Sagas, etc. Until you noticed the large Qur'an in the corner there, and the shelf of Buddhist texts. Then you would get really confused. So I don't think it means anything personally.

The first thing people notice in my room is the book with the big swastika on the spine. Everyone notices that! The skulls are second.

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#49
(01-28-2010, 08:40 PM)Herr_Mannelig Wrote:
(01-28-2010, 08:33 PM)BrevisVir55 Wrote: If you looked at my book shelf you would come away thinking I was some kind of pagan because of all the books on the pre-Christian religions of Europe, Celtic/Germanic Mythology, Icelandic Sagas, etc. Until you noticed the large Qur'an in the corner there, and the shelf of Buddhist texts. Then you would get really confused. So I don't think it means anything personally.

The first thing people notice in my room is the book with the big swastika on the spine. Everyone notices that! The skulls are second.

:laughing: well, I was a pagan before I converted so me having the books makes sense.
so what's your story?  ;D
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#50
(01-28-2010, 08:30 PM)WhollyRoaminCatholic Wrote: Not disagreeing, but where has the church said that reading horoscopes is against the faith?  IIRC, a good amount of Christian history has looked for guidance from the stars.

Christians have used the stars for navigation, but have never used the stars or constellations a guide that predicts their future or as a meaning for the outcome of their lives. God and Israel destroyed the pagans in the Old Testament for worshiping the stars and moons as gods. St. Augustine himself ridiculed horoscopes in the Confessions. He showed how ridiculous they were by comparing what the horoscopes predicted about a rich man and slave born under the same time and star.

We rely on the providence of God who controls the universe. Man also has free will in which he chooses his destiny. Horoscopes are part of astrology. The idea that all human life is guided by the cosmic force of the universe through the stars and not God himself.
Forbidding horoscopes and astrology is found in most detailed examinations of conscience.
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