Pope John Paul II meditating on the Tarot?
#51
(01-28-2010, 08:26 PM)salome Wrote: Sure. I'm going to listen to YOU over St. Basil the Great.....riiiiggght....buh bye now.... :pazzo:

I guess you are going to have to ignore the Bible. Don't listen to me, listen to the Bible. God himself said he was angry in the Bible. God wouldn't punish sin otherwise. I don't know what you believe God to be. Some floating gas or something.
The prophets of the Old Testament were pretty clear, if anyone takes the Bible seriously anymore or bothers to read it.

I don't know if you are taking St. Basil out of context, misunderstood what he meant, or if St. Basil erred on some point. It depends on what was written. The Church has never said that God does not get angry.
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#52
In 2007 Fr. Issac Relyea gave a Lenten Mission. In the Lenten Mission, he gave a talk on judgement, part of the four last things.
He goes through a very detailed examination of conscience. He talks about horoscopes, astrology, magic and the occult, when covering the first commandment:

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/200703...ement.html
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#53
"God is good, dispassionate, and immutable. Now someone who thinks it reasonable and true to affirm that God does not change, may well ask how, in that case, it is possible to speak of God as rejoicing over those who are good and showing mercy to those who honor Him, and as turning away from the wicked and being angry with sinners. To this it must be answered that God neither rejoices nor grows angry, for to rejoice and to be offended are passions; nor is He won over by the gifts of those who honor Him, for that would mean He is swayed by pleasure. It is not right that the Divinity feel pleasure or displeasure from human conditions. He is good, and He only bestows blessings and never does harm, remaining always the same. We men, on the other hand, if we remain good through resembling God, are united to Him, but if we become evil through not resembling God, we are separated from Him. By living in holiness we cleave to God; but by becoming wicked we make Him our enemy. It is not that He grows angry with us in an arbitrary way, but it is our own sins that prevent God from shining within us and expose us to demons who torture us. And if through prayer and acts of compassion we gain release from our sins, this does not mean that we have won God over and made Him to change, but that through our actions and our turning to the Divinity, we have cured our wickedness and so once more have enjoyment of God’s goodness. Thus to say that God turns away from the wicked is like saying that the sun hides itself from the blind."  St. Anthony the Great-

In his discourse entitled That God is not the Cause of Evil, Saint Basil the Great writes the following:
“But one may say, if God is not responsible for evil things, why is it said in the book of Esaias, ‘I am He that prepared light and Who formed darkness, Who makes peace and Who creates evils’ (45:7).” And again, “There came down evils from the Lord upon the gates of Jerusalem” (Mich. 1:12). And, “Shall there be evil in the city which the Lord hath not wrought?” (Amos 3:6). And in the great Ode of Moses, “Behold, I am and there is no god beside Me. I will slay, and I will make to live; I will smite, and I will heal” (Deut. 32:39). But none of these citations, to him who understands the deeper meaning of the Holy Scriptures, casts any blame on God, as if He were the cause of evils and their creator, for He Who said, “I am the One Who makes light and darkness,” shows Himself as the Creator of the universe, not that He is the creator of any evil…. “He creates evils,” that means, “He fashions them again and brings them to a betterment, so that they leave their evilness, to take on the nature of good.”


As Saint Isaac the Syrian writes, “Very often many things are said by the Holy Scriptures and in it many names are used not in a literal sense… those who have a mind understand this” (Homily 83, p. 317).
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#54
To add to salome's post above, some further testimony from the Fathers regarding God's impassibility.

God the Father is Impassible (Absence of Human Emotions) / Anthropopathism (Metaphorical Attribution to God of Same) and Anthropomorphism
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2009/01/c...ility.html
[scroll down halfway]
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#55
(01-28-2010, 09:08 PM)salome Wrote: "To this it must be answered that God neither rejoices nor grows angry, for to rejoice and to be offended are passions; nor is He won over by the gifts of those who honor Him, for that would mean He is swayed by pleasure. It is not right that the Divinity feel pleasure or displeasure from human conditions.
This is really the only problem in the whole section. St. Basil blew it. Saints are not infallible. I am sorry, but he cannot equate God's joy and anger with human passions. They are not the same thing. He mixes the two. God does respond to human free will and behavior. He gives some men more grace than others according to his will. If God didn't love humanity, he wouldn't have sent his son to redeem us.

(01-28-2010, 09:08 PM)salome Wrote: "He is good, and He only bestows blessings and never does harm, remaining always the same."
God cannot do evil. Everything he does is good. God however takes vengeance and justice. He is both mercy and justice.St. Basil got half the equation right. Whatever harm or injury God does, he does because it is justice. His justice is always good. The harm God does can never seen as evil.
(01-28-2010, 09:08 PM)salome Wrote: "It is not that He grows angry with us in an arbitrary way, but it is our own sins that prevent God from shining within us and expose us to demons who torture us. "
God's anger is not human anger, but divine anger. His anger is good and holy. God does not get angry in an arbitrary way like humans. His anger is just and always with divine reason, unlike humans.
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#56
(01-28-2010, 09:28 PM)Marc Wrote: To add to salome's post above, some further testimony from the Fathers regarding God's impassibility.

God the Father is Impassible (Absence of Human Emotions) / Anthropopathism (Metaphorical Attribution to God of Same) and Anthropomorphism
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2009/01/c...ility.html
[scroll down halfway]

Thanks Marc!  I saved this link! 
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#57
(01-28-2010, 01:54 PM)coradcorloquitur Wrote: http://www.alpheus.org/html/articles/esoteric_history/Wojtyla&Tarot.htm

*adds Tomberg's book to wishlist*

[Image: afraidsmiley.gif]

P.S. The website's article on Phenomenology and JPII's suspected Rosicrucianism was a real hoot. Why am I not surprised at the hat tip to Tradition In Action?
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#58
(01-28-2010, 08:43 PM)SaintRafael Wrote:
(01-28-2010, 08:30 PM)WhollyRoaminCatholic Wrote: Not disagreeing, but where has the church said that reading horoscopes is against the faith?  IIRC, a good amount of Christian history has looked for guidance from the stars.

Christians have used the stars for navigation, but have never used the stars or constellations a guide that predicts their future or as a meaning for the outcome of their lives. God and Israel destroyed the pagans in the Old Testament for worshiping the stars and moons as gods. St. Augustine himself ridiculed horoscopes in the Confessions. He showed how ridiculous they were by comparing what the horoscopes predicted about a rich man and slave born under the same time and star.

Then there were a lot of Popes, Cardinals and bishops who weren't Christian.  St. Augustine talked in several places about astrology, and at one point admitted there may be something to it.

Quote:We rely on the providence of God who controls the universe. Man also has free will in which he chooses his destiny. Horoscopes are part of astrology. The idea that all human life is guided by the cosmic force of the universe through the stars and not God himself.

That is one interpretation.  Another interpretation, that the Popes who had astrologers most likely had, is that the stars are one of the mechanisms by which God fulfills his will, and that the start are not fatalistic, but provide an outline for a person's life that can be overridden by free will.

An imperfect fatalistic view that free will can override is not unreasonable.  Someone born to a rich man will probably fare better than someone born to a poor man. But that can change based on each person's actions.  So thinking that someone born under a fortunate sign in the heavens will fare better than someone born under an unfortunate sign, will allowing that can change drastically based on personal decisions, is also not unreasonable.  The question is: do the stars have this effect.  Well, probably not.
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#59
(01-28-2010, 09:28 PM)Marc Wrote: God the Father is Impassible (Absence of Human Emotions) / Anthropopathism (Metaphorical Attribution to God of Same) and Anthropomorphism
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2009/01/c...ility.html
[scroll down halfway]
The vast majority of quotes deals with and says that God does not change, not about God changing his mind when confronted with with the free will actions of men. God having divine emotions and changing his mind does not contradict many of those quotes. I'll sum it up:

God does not change. God can never change. He is always was and will always be. God's emotions are part of his essence. The ability to change his mind has always been part of God. It will always be part of God. Therefore,God does not change. God cannot change who he is. The essence of God with his personhood and emotions does not change. Since the essence of God never changes, God never changes. All this can fit with most of those quotes.
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#60
The three magi ("mages") were astrologers. They used their craft to find the Christ.

It's also interesting that in the Bible and all through the Middle Ages, people cast lots or drew straws to determine God's will.
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