There's no remission of sin outside the Church
#11
(02-02-2010, 08:03 PM)DesperatelySeeking Wrote: OK, well here's my question on this topic: can someone who is not Catholic validly receive the sacrament of  Confession?

The Church permits even a laicized priest to validly absolve a penitent in cases of need.  In another example, any layperson can in case of need validly baptize any person.

So - and I agree it's a pretty hypothetical situation - what if some non-Catholic found himself in peril (sinking ship maybe?) and sought out a priest for forgiveness of his sins....can the priest do it?  Obviously, he could follow the form of the sacrament - but is it valid?

Or - would the priest need to baptize the person first, and then absolve them? Extra ecclesiam nulla salus would seem to indicate so.

I would think that the non-Catholic would first have to profess the Catholic Faith - thereby renouncing his adherence to heresy - before receiving the Sacrament of Penance. If I remember correctly, Canon Law says that a person must show faith in the sacrament and are properly disposed before receiving it (CIC 844 § 4).
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#12
(02-02-2010, 08:03 PM)DesperatelySeeking Wrote: OK, well here's my question on this topic: can someone who is not Catholic validly receive the sacrament of  Confession?

The Church permits even a laicized priest to validly absolve a penitent in cases of need.  In another example, any layperson can in case of need validly baptize any person.

So - and I agree it's a pretty hypothetical situation - what if some non-Catholic found himself in peril (sinking ship maybe?) and sought out a priest for forgiveness of his sins....can the priest do it?  Obviously, he could follow the form of the sacrament - but is it valid?

Or - would the priest need to baptize the person first, and then absolve them? Extra ecclesiam nulla salus would seem to indicate so.

The question seems "At what point is someone in the Church?".

One does not have to physically enter a chapel, or join a parish or be taught much in the faith. So a person who is newly baptised is baptised into the Church. Now, they may be ignorant of the Faith, and may be taught wrong things, and soon may make decisions which show they know they are not in the Church, but at that moment, they are.

For confession, that is only possible for people in the Church. A person can go through the form but the intent is known to God.
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#13
(02-02-2010, 08:03 PM)DesperatelySeeking Wrote: Or - would the priest need to baptize the person first, and then absolve them? Extra ecclesiam nulla salus would seem to indicate so.

Baptism remits all sins.  If the priest baptized the person, they would not need Confession unless they sinned again.
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#14
(02-02-2010, 08:03 PM)DesperatelySeeking Wrote: OK, well here's my question on this topic: can someone who is not Catholic validly receive the sacrament of  Confession?

Remission of sin doesn't always presuppose a sacramental confession. Perfect contrition can remits mortal and venial sin.


So, can someone who is outside the Church have perfect contrition [assuming sacramental confession is unavailable for him] and have his sin remitted? It seems that Unam Sanctam says "no."
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#15
(02-02-2010, 11:01 PM)beng Wrote:
(02-02-2010, 08:03 PM)DesperatelySeeking Wrote: OK, well here's my question on this topic: can someone who is not Catholic validly receive the sacrament of  Confession?

Remission of sin doesn't always presuppose a sacramental confession. Perfect contrition can remits mortal and venial sin.


So, can someone who is outside the Church have perfect contrition [assuming sacramental confession is unavailable for him] and have his sin remitted? It seems that Unam Sanctam says "no."

Do you always ask questions when you already have an opinion of the answer you want?

And are you my wife?
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#16
(02-02-2010, 11:01 PM)beng Wrote:
(02-02-2010, 08:03 PM)DesperatelySeeking Wrote: OK, well here's my question on this topic: can someone who is not Catholic validly receive the sacrament of  Confession?

Remission of sin doesn't always presuppose a sacramental confession. Perfect contrition can remits mortal and venial sin.


So, can someone who is outside the Church have perfect contrition [assuming sacramental confession is unavailable for him] and have his sin remitted? It seems that Unam Sanctam says "no."

This was my point above. The things required for perfect contrition would imply that desire for Baptism necessary for justification (thus making the person no longer "outside the Church"). St. Alphonsus sums it up here: "Who can deny that the act of perfect love of God, which is sufficient for justification, includes an implicit desire of Baptism, of Penance, and of the Eucharist." And further: "But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called “of wind” [“flaminis”] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind [“flamen”]. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, “de presbytero non baptizato” and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.” "
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#17
Ott's "Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma" doesn't say 'Baptism of Desire' is de fide. In fact, it says that both baptism of desire and baptism of blood do not (and cannot) make one a member of the Church, only Sacramental Baptism makes one a member of the Church. It's pg. 311 in my paperback edition from TAN books.
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#18
CatholicChristian Wrote:Ott's "Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma" doesn't say 'Baptism of Desire' is de fide. In fact, it says that both baptism of desire and baptism of blood do not (and cannot) make one a member of the Church, only Sacramental Baptism makes one a member of the Church. It's pg. 311 in my paperback edition from TAN books.
They certainly don't make men FORMAL members of the Church, but nonetheless they certainly are real members by Sanctifying Grace. I'm with St. Alphonsus on them being de fide over Ott's FoCD, the Saint and Church Doctor is the Church's theologian per excellence on the subject this concerns. St. Pius X also believed and taught the doctrine. See also how the doctrine on Baptism reflects the Blessed Trinity and the Incarnation. God the Son is the only visible Divine Person, the Sacrament of Baptism (of water) is the only visible mode of Baptism.
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#19
(02-02-2010, 11:22 PM)WhollyRoaminCatholic Wrote:
(02-02-2010, 11:01 PM)beng Wrote:
(02-02-2010, 08:03 PM)DesperatelySeeking Wrote: OK, well here's my question on this topic: can someone who is not Catholic validly receive the sacrament of  Confession?

Remission of sin doesn't always presuppose a sacramental confession. Perfect contrition can remits mortal and venial sin.


So, can someone who is outside the Church have perfect contrition [assuming sacramental confession is unavailable for him] and have his sin remitted? It seems that Unam Sanctam says "no."

Do you always ask questions when you already have an opinion of the answer you want?

Not always. This is not one of them.

Quote:And are you my wife?

I don't date men.
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#20
(02-02-2010, 11:27 PM)SaintSebastian Wrote:
(02-02-2010, 11:01 PM)beng Wrote:
(02-02-2010, 08:03 PM)DesperatelySeeking Wrote: OK, well here's my question on this topic: can someone who is not Catholic validly receive the sacrament of  Confession?

Remission of sin doesn't always presuppose a sacramental confession. Perfect contrition can remits mortal and venial sin.


So, can someone who is outside the Church have perfect contrition [assuming sacramental confession is unavailable for him] and have his sin remitted? It seems that Unam Sanctam says "no."

This was my point above. The things required for perfect contrition would imply that desire for Baptism necessary for justification (thus making the person no longer "outside the Church"). St. Alphonsus sums it up here: "Who can deny that the act of perfect love of God, which is sufficient for justification, includes an implicit desire of Baptism, of Penance, and of the Eucharist." And further: "But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called “of wind” [“flaminis”] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind [“flamen”]. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, “de presbytero non baptizato” and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.” "

I'll look up St Alphonse.
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