There's no remission of sin outside the Church
#21
(02-04-2010, 12:51 AM)GodFirst Wrote:
CatholicChristian Wrote:Ott's "Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma" doesn't say 'Baptism of Desire' is de fide. In fact, it says that both baptism of desire and baptism of blood do not (and cannot) make one a member of the Church, only Sacramental Baptism makes one a member of the Church. It's pg. 311 in my paperback edition from TAN books.
They certainly don't make men FORMAL members of the Church, but nonetheless they certainly are real members by Sanctifying Grace. I'm with St. Alphonsus on them being de fide over Ott's FoCD, the Saint and Church Doctor is the Church's theologian per excellence on the subject this concerns. St. Pius X also believed and taught the doctrine. See also how the doctrine on Baptism reflects the Blessed Trinity and the Incarnation. God the Son is the only visible Divine Person, the Sacrament of Baptism (of water) is the only visible mode of Baptism.
Where does the Church distinguish between 'formal' and 'informal' members? Can you show where St. Pius X taught baptism of desire/baptism of blood?

The formal/informal idea seems too close to the idea of the visible/invisible Church (body/soul of the Church) idea that was condemned by Pope Leo XIII in "Satis Cognitum"
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#22
(02-02-2010, 10:24 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote:
(02-02-2010, 08:03 PM)DesperatelySeeking Wrote: Or - would the priest need to baptize the person first, and then absolve them? Extra ecclesiam nulla salus would seem to indicate so.

Baptism remits all sins.  If the priest baptized the person, they would not need Confession unless they sinned again.

Fine. Go ahead and be right.    ;D
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#23
"Teach them that just as there is only one God, one Christ, one Holy Spirit, so there is also only one truth which is divinely revealed. There is only one divine faith which is the beginning of salvation for mankind and the basis of all justification, the faith by which the just person lives and without which it is impossible to please God and to come to the community of His children. There is only one true, holy, Catholic church, which is the Apostolic Roman Church. There is only one See founded in Peter by the word of the Lord, outside of which we cannot find either true faith or eternal salvation. He who does not have the Church for a mother cannot have God for a father, and whoever abandons the See of Peter on which the Church is established trusts falsely that he is in the Church." - Pius IX, Singulari Quidem.
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#24
Technically true in my understanding - in the sense that if one who isn't formally Catholic is forgiven, that it is through Christ & His Church that forgiveness on earth comes, so no remission outside the the Church.

So one can be invincibly ignorant of the true faith & be saved, though this teaching applies in very rare cases.

That's my unerstanding at any rate.

:)

Kind Regards
JR
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www.ChristianBooksToday.com
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#25
(02-02-2010, 11:01 PM)beng Wrote:
(02-02-2010, 08:03 PM)DesperatelySeeking Wrote: OK, well here's my question on this topic: can someone who is not Catholic validly receive the sacrament of  Confession?

Remission of sin doesn't always presuppose a sacramental confession. Perfect contrition can remits mortal and venial sin.


So, can someone who is outside the Church have perfect contrition [assuming sacramental confession is unavailable for him] and have his sin remitted? It seems that Unam Sanctam says "no."
By having making the act of perfect contrition, I believe, by the Holy Ghost's power the person would be made a spiritual member of the Church.  Perfect Contrition which is nothing other than sorrow and hatred for sin motivated by the Love of God. The question is like asking: Can one who is outside the Church come into the Church? Of course, we know the answer to that question. Faith is, of course, also necessary for you cannot properly love what you do not properly know.
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#26
CatholicChristian Wrote:Where does the Church distinguish between 'formal' and 'informal' members?
Pope John Paul II makes the distinction in one of his encyclicals.

Quote:Can you show where St. Pius X taught baptism of desire/baptism of blood?
In his bishop's catechism or "the catechism of St. Pius X" as it usually titled now.

Quote:The formal/informal idea seems too close to the idea of the visible/invisible Church (body/soul of the Church) idea that was condemned by Pope Leo XIII in "Satis Cognitum"
Please provide his exact words, and then we can discuss it. i doubt it condemned the fact that there are invisible members of the Church, namely, the Saints in Heaven.
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#27
(02-02-2010, 02:06 PM)James02 Wrote:
Quote: We are not in better position than a protestant or Muslim.
This is where the Novus Ordo drags you down to.  It is the devil's way of eliminating baptism and the Mass.

Fr. Feeney saw it.  It led to a neo-Pelagianism.  Which led to the "dignity of Man".  Which led to Vatican II.  Which led to the loss of most TLMs.  which led to the SSPX being "excommunicated" (which was void).  And now the conclusion.  Anyone (all?) can be saved outside the Church.  Baptism is not needed.  The sacraments are not needed.  Only Catholics go to hell.  The devil's goal is revealed.

Our Lady of Fatima, pray for us.

So true.
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#28
(02-02-2010, 12:34 AM)James02 Wrote: Mostly true.  However, baptisms performed outside the Church are valid.  I guess it is considered a "Catholic" baptism, however.  So let's say some 30 year old atheist goes to a Methodist church and gets baptized.  His sins would be forgiven.  If he died right after, he would go to heaven.

If he died right after sure but if he commits one mortal sin and he is outside the Church oops.
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#29
(02-04-2010, 12:51 AM)GodFirst Wrote:
CatholicChristian Wrote:Ott's "Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma" doesn't say 'Baptism of Desire' is de fide. In fact, it says that both baptism of desire and baptism of blood do not (and cannot) make one a member of the Church, only Sacramental Baptism makes one a member of the Church. It's pg. 311 in my paperback edition from TAN books.
They certainly don't make men FORMAL members of the Church, but nonetheless they certainly are real members by Sanctifying Grace. I'm with St. Alphonsus on them being de fide over Ott's FoCD, the Saint and Church Doctor is the Church's theologian per excellence on the subject this concerns. St. Pius X also believed and taught the doctrine. See also how the doctrine on Baptism reflects the Blessed Trinity and the Incarnation. God the Son is the only visible Divine Person, the Sacrament of Baptism (of water) is the only visible mode of Baptism.

Isn't there a distinction of in re and in voto? The baptized are members in re (actually), while those who are inspired by divine faith to perfect contrition are members in voto (in desire) and so are to be considered within the Church. Msgr. Fenton wrote many articles on this issue, and from what I've read he was quite orthodox (i.e. deemed orthodox by others who would seem to know the difference).

"Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed" (Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi, n. 22; 29 June 1943).
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#30
There is no salvation outside the church.
In pother words ur nice methadists is gonna cook
Such is life. Such are the rules.
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