The Church fathers on women
#11
(02-09-2010, 01:11 AM)Metatron Wrote: Hello everyone.

I found some controversial quotes by the early Fathers on the subject of women

Controversial according to what standard?

This is modernism. Atheism appeals to whatever popular morals are in place at the time, regardless of reason. Atheism, when used with logic, has some very different conclusions.

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#12
(02-09-2010, 09:50 AM)Augstine Baker Wrote:
(02-09-2010, 09:42 AM)Jacafamala Wrote:
(02-09-2010, 09:37 AM)Augstine Baker Wrote:
(02-09-2010, 04:01 AM)Jacafamala Wrote:
(02-09-2010, 01:39 AM)Augstine Baker Wrote: A lot of how screwed up everything is in the Church is due to women running things.

atheism.about.com may want to quote you, too.

They probably quote St. Paul too.

I never saw where St. Paul was misogynistic. He knew men and women had separate roles. But that's different. There's a difference between treating women as women and treating women as dirt, you know.

And btw, I didn't like your totally rash inference that the FSSP only shows up in dioceses where the SSPX already are. Untrue. My Diocese Paterson has FSSP but no SSPX. But, I'm not going back to that Mexican thread. It was getting a lil too much on my nerves.

Maybe you should read St. Paul again.

I've never written a single word in defense of the FSSP being co-located by design with SSPX chapels. Do planners do things like that?  Yes, but I'm not committed to the idea one way or another. 

What in particular? I read St. Paul's epistles all the time. There's nothing I'd disagree with. Please show me what you think I'd disagree with. I do however disagree with your inflammatory statement about women wrecking the church, although I'd agree they have no place on the altar or in the clergy.

If it weren't for the women in my church, there wouldn't be any celebrations. No community. They do all the work that way. There'd just be the Mass then everyone would go home.

It must have been someone else in the thread on Mexico, sorry.
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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#13
(02-09-2010, 01:11 AM)Metatron Wrote: Hello everyone.

I found some controversial quotes by the early Fathers on the subject of women (http://atheism.about.com/b/2005/03/10/a-...ianity.htm), such as:
Clement of Alexandria (150?-215?): "Every woman should be filled with shame by the thought that she is a woman."

One always should be cautious of quotations without exact references. The writer does not want you to read the text in context.

As for the women the Church always venerated the Blessed Virgin, and many female Saints: St. Prisca, St Agnes, St Martina,  St Agatha, St Dorothea, St Scholastica,   just from January and February.

Here are two books from Tertullian himself, to see his view of women (read them to prevent such immature statements that Tertullian is idiot) :

To His wife, Tertullian
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0404.htm

The Passion of the Holy Martyrs Perpetua and Felicity, Tertullian
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0324.htm

It is true that until the 20th Century the common view was that women (and not men) are the source of strong sexual desire, and temptation; and as a matter of fact many women were uneducated. The theology is science, it is a great danger if someone makes statments with full usurped authority without proper knowledge of the topic.
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#14
The first quote, I think, part of a longer work that dealt with humility and original sin, so presumably, men are also supposed to not take pride in the fact that they are men. The point was about pride, not condemning all women period, or it would condemn the Blessed Mother and all women saints as well. Also, Tertullian is not properly considered a Church father, I had read he was not made a saint even, due to some very dubious theological writings.
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#15
(02-09-2010, 01:11 AM)Metatron Wrote: I was wondering what the Church's view is on this. I mean, these are quite harsh, and yet the Church claims to stand for equality. Any thoughts?

Could it be that they were wrong? Like folks were wrong when they believed the world was flat? St. Hildegarde of Bingen (the darling of the feminists) refers to the “weaker sex” and constantly belittles women in her writings. Yet she herself was a very learned woman, who lived in a patriarchal society that held such views. The Church Fathers are not infallible and women are equal in dignity to men - THAT is the Church's view on this matter. I, too, am a bit suspicious of about atheism.com (even though I subscribe to it! LOL). Better to read the Church Fathers like we read the Bible - in full and in context.

- Lisa
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#16
Allow me to quote from the following page: http://www.tektonics.org/af/bogusq.html

(02-09-2010, 01:11 AM)Metatron Wrote: Clement of Alexandria (150?-215?): "Every woman should be filled with shame by the thought that she is a woman."

"OWD [on the way to being debunked]. Origins? The "positive atheism" site credits "from Lea, History of Sacerdotal Celibacy (page 320), quoted from Joseph Lewis, The Ten Commandments (page 422)." Page 320 of this book is about heretical views in Europe c. 1200-1400; needless to say, Clement is not mentioned, and he is not even listed in Lea's index, nor does he appear in the few pages Lea has on the patristic church. I think Skeptic John Powell offers a reasonable explanation here."

(02-09-2010, 01:11 AM)Metatron Wrote: Tertullian (160?-220?): "Woman is a temple built over a sewer, the gateway to the devil. Woman, you are the devil's doorway. You led astray one whom the devil would not dare attack directly. It was your fault that the Son of God had to die; you should always go in mourning and rags."

""Each of you women is an Eve . . . You are the gate of Hell, you are the temptress of the forbidden tree; you are the first deserter of the divine law."

G [genuine]. However, it must be viewed in a larger context of what Tertullian said about women (AND men!). For a more thorough examination, see here."

(02-09-2010, 01:11 AM)Metatron Wrote: Ambrose (339-97): "Adam was deceived by Eve, not Eve by Adam... it is right that he whom that woman induced to sin should assume the role of guide lest he fall again through feminine instability."

Even if this is genuine, I do not see a great problem therewith. Source?

(02-09-2010, 01:11 AM)Metatron Wrote: Augustine (354-430): "Woman was merely man's helpmate, a function which pertains to her alone. She is not the image of God but as far as man is concerned, he is by himself the image of God."

Genuine; I refer you to the following page for context (chapter 7): http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/130112.htm

(02-09-2010, 01:11 AM)Metatron Wrote: Pope Gregory I (540-604): "Woman is slow in understanding and her unstable and naive mind renders her by way of natural weakness to the necessity of a strong hand in her husband. Her 'use' is two fold; [carnal] sex and motherhood."

I have not been able to find a single source for this on the internet, so if it has a genuine foundation at all, it is very probably distorted.

(02-09-2010, 01:11 AM)Metatron Wrote: Thomas Aquinas (1225-74): "[Woman] was made only to assist with procreation."

Distortion.

"Here's the FULL context [link]:

Objection: It can be argued that woman should not have formed part of the world as it was initially created. For Aristotle says that a female is an occasioned male. But it would be wrong for something occasioned and [hence] deficient to be part of the initial creation. Therefore woman should not have been a part of that world.” (Thomas answers that the female is defective as a particular event; not as part of the general scheme of things). Summa Theologica, 1, qu. 92, art 1, ob. 1

Reply: “Vis-a-vis [seen as caused by] the natura particularis [i.e., the action of the male semen], a female is deficient and unintentionally caused. For the active power of the semen always seeks to produce a thing completely like itself, something male. So if a female is produced, this must be because the semen is weak or because the material [provided by the female parent] is unsuitable, or because of the action of some external factor such as the winds from the south which make the atmosphere humid. But vis-a-vis [seen as caused by] natura universalis [general Nature] the female is not accidentally caused but is intended by Nature for the work of generation. Now the intentions of Nature come from God, who is its author. This is why, when he created Nature, he made not only the male but also the female” Summa Theologica, 1, qu. 92, art 1, ad 1.


As noted here (link now dead):

Note. Thomas Aquinas followed Aristotle in attributing the conception of a woman to a defect of a particular seed. The male semen intends to produce a complete human being, a man, but at times it does not succeed and produces a woman. A woman is, therefore, a mas occasionatus, a failed male. Thomas stresses that this does not imply that women were not part of God's grand scheme of creation. However, a female is not perfect.

‘According to the medicine of his century, which, of course, Thomas did not correct, woman was an incomplete man, a half-baked male, whose unfinished characteristics come about through some weakness in the parents, some disposition in the human material or some extrinsic cause such as, for example, a strong south wind at the time of conception. Nevertheless Thomas thinks it is unjust to consider woman a cosmic accident; she was not an accident, this creature was made on purpose, deliberately planned by God.’ Walter Farrell, O.P., A Companion to the Summa, I ch. 12. Read also M. Nolan, ‘The Defective Male: What Aquinas Really Said’, New Blackfriars.


See more here."
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#17
[Image: troll.jpg]
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#18
Will Optimus Prime start posting here, too?  ???
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#19
(02-09-2010, 10:46 AM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:
(02-09-2010, 01:11 AM)Metatron Wrote: I was wondering what the Church's view is on this. I mean, these are quite harsh, and yet the Church claims to stand for equality. Any thoughts?

Could it be that they were wrong? Like folks were wrong when they believed the world was flat? St. Hildegarde of Bingen (the darling of the feminists) refers to the “weaker sex” and constantly belittles women in her writings. Yet she herself was a very learned woman, who lived in a patriarchal society that held such views. The Church Fathers are not infallible and women are equal in dignity to men - THAT is the Church's view on this matter. I, too, am a bit suspicious of about atheism.com (even though I subscribe to it! LOL). Better to read the Church Fathers like we read the Bible - in full and in context.

- Lisa

Let's dispell the "flat earth" myth.  It was created in the 1820's by some protestants who wanted to make the Catholic Church look bad.  It is rather well documented in the book "Inventing the Flat Eart" by Russell, available on amazon.com  Going all the way back to Ptolemy you can see from diagrams/maps of the earth and the solar system that they all showed the round globe of the earth.  The only thing they had wrong was this planet's actual circumference, which was the reason for Christopher Columbus' detractors at the time.  No on actually thought he would "fall off"  It certainly doesn't support this arguement.
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#20
Rule of thumb.  Always take quotes, news releases, reports, etc. from non- and anti-Catholic sources with a huge grain of salt.  They almost never get it right.  I spent my youth and early adulthood in a very anti-Catholic church.  As I began to study the Church more I found that all the anti-Catholic arguments I had heard forever were either (1) false; (2) taken out of context; or (3) irrelevant.  "By their fruits ye shall know them."  What is the fruit of the Catholic Faith on the status of women?  Anyone with a smattering of knowledge knows that the Church has exalted women far beyond anything imaginable in paganism (either old or new variety).  There is an interesting book by French historian Regine Pernoud called (I believe) "Women in the DAys of the Cathedrals."  In this and other works she debunks most of the anti-Catholic myths concerning the middle ages.
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