The Church fathers on women
#31
(02-09-2010, 07:30 PM)i.p.i. Wrote: Very true, Jaca!  Also, if the women in a parish only attended Mass and tended their families, Father would have to wash and iron all the altar cloths, purificators, etc., plus polish the candlesticks, refill the candle stands, see to the flowers for the altar, all the little things the women of the Altar Society do now.

I don't know if I agree with that policy. It seems more appropriate and ideal to have clerics do all of those things. I don't think women ever tended to altar vessels and linens until fairly recently in history, but I can't pinpoint exactly when that would be.

It's certainly a good thing that women help organize the social events, though.
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#32
(02-09-2010, 10:05 AM)In nomine Patris Wrote: I would like to point out the holiest person ever born, or that ever will be born, ever, was, is, a woman. The Blessed Virgin Mary. Just the plain facts here.

No, the Blessed Virgin was the holiest *human* person ever born.  But her Son was the holiest human being ever born -- holier than His Mother because He was a Divine Person.  So Christ, a man, was definitely the holiest person ever born, holier than His Mother.  His Mother, a woman, was the holiest *human person* but the only the second holiest human being ever born.  She was a perfect creature, but necessarily less perfect than her Son who was the Creator in His divine nature as well as creature in His human nature and therefore was infinite in perfection.  Please don't get that wrong. 
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#33
(02-09-2010, 07:34 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote:
(02-09-2010, 07:30 PM)i.p.i. Wrote: Very true, Jaca!  Also, if the women in a parish only attended Mass and tended their families, Father would have to wash and iron all the altar cloths, purificators, etc., plus polish the candlesticks, refill the candle stands, see to the flowers for the altar, all the little things the women of the Altar Society do now.

I don't know if I agree with that policy. It seems more appropriate and ideal to have clerics do all of those things. I don't think women ever tended to altar vessels and linens until fairly recently in history, but I can't pinpoint exactly when that would be.

It's certainly a good thing that women help organize the social events, though.

Do you believe that NO recent policies are good? If the wimmins are busy ironing altar linens (which is something I did for several years myself), they have less time to do things that are clearly inappropriate, like leading heretical pre-Cana sessions. Also, if I am not mistaken, women used to actually MAKE the linens, which is something I would like to see come back.
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#34
(02-09-2010, 07:34 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote:
(02-09-2010, 07:30 PM)i.p.i. Wrote: Very true, Jaca!  Also, if the women in a parish only attended Mass and tended their families, Father would have to wash and iron all the altar cloths, purificators, etc., plus polish the candlesticks, refill the candle stands, see to the flowers for the altar, all the little things the women of the Altar Society do now.

I don't know if I agree with that policy. It seems more appropriate and ideal to have clerics do all of those things. I don't think women ever tended to altar vessels and linens until fairly recently in history, but I can't pinpoint exactly when that would be.

It's certainly a good thing that women help organize the social events, though.

i think most clerics would rather play golf than wash and iron altar linens and such. 

i didn't mention altar vessels, by the way.  for a long time, Eucharistic ministers purified the chalices after Communion but then orders came down that only the clergy were to do that.  as far as i know, the altar guild doesn't do anything with the vessels.


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#35
(02-09-2010, 08:14 PM)i.p.i. Wrote: i think most clerics would rather play golf than wash and iron altar linens and such.

True, but most clerics would also rather play golf than offer or serve at Mass at an inconvenient time.

Quote:i didn't mention altar vessels, by the way.  for a long time, Eucharistic ministers purified the chalices after Communion but then orders came down that only the clergy were to do that.  as far as i know, the altar guild doesn't do anything with the vessels.

Sorry, I was referring very broadly to items around the altar, including candlesticks. Not specifically the paten/ciboria/etc.
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#36
(02-09-2010, 08:00 PM)Satori Wrote: Do you believe that NO recent policies are good? If the wimmins are busy ironing altar linens (which is something I did for several years myself), they have less time to do things that are clearly inappropriate, like leading heretical pre-Cana sessions. Also, if I am not mistaken, women used to actually MAKE the linens, which is something I would like to see come back.

If that's what it takes to keep the wimmins out of trouble, it's better that they don't do anything at all. Clerics should also take care of marriage prep, and pretty much everything else directly related to the Church's teaching and sacramental life. I'm referring to the medieval model, of course. By "clerics", I don't mean just priests, but deacons, subdeacons, and a whole staff of men in minor orders; i.e. "clerks" in the original sense of the word. The current model, even in many trad communities, is "Father, the old ladies and the little boys". Does anyone else notice the problem with that?
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#37
Well, I for one am just relieved upon reading this thread....."Church Fathers on Women"....I thought it was another sex scandal headline.  ;D
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#38
(02-09-2010, 08:58 PM)DesperatelySeeking Wrote: Well, I for one am just relieved upon reading this thread....."Church Fathers on Women"....I thought it was another sex scandal headline.  ;D

Sadly, at this point I'd just be glad they weren't "on" the kids.
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#39
Historically many things were believed by people in the church ....
in fact, i will point out that there had to be great conferences to debate points where people, including learned elders of the church, were divided on points of actual doctrine.

however.
none of those quotes, EVEN if accurate (and i suspect they are well out of context) are teachings of the church as matters of doctrine.

there are great saints who have been in error over things that "everyone knew" the only thing that becomes worrisome is if some teaching is proclaimed to be "from God" and not from "common knowledge" or "my opinion".

St Augustine had a rather..... err... Jaundiced view on women.  this is likely because he was a party boy and sinner before his conversion.  i know several men who have . let us say. dour opinions about women because they have had serious issues with pornography and such.  that does not mean they are correct.  its their view.

however, "the solitary boast of our fallen race" is Mary. 
the church has recognized many many female saints, including wives and mothers (St Monica springs to mind as does St Elizabeth of Hungary) so..... as you can see, the CHURCH does not denigrate women.

women were in fact denigrated horribly by the Albigensian and cathar heresy, which St Dominic used the Rosary and the teachings about Mary, to defeat.
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#40
I think veritatem dilexisti has answered your question (page 2).  The quotes are fabrications, or completely taken out of context.

As far as this statement:
Quote: I was wondering what the Church's view is on this. I mean, these are quite harsh, and yet the Church claims to stand for equality. Any thoughts?
Depends what you mean by equal.  It certainly is completely against the feminist concept of "equality" and holds that a wife must obey her husband.  But both men and women are equal in terms of human dignity.
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