The Church fathers on women
#41
(02-09-2010, 01:21 PM)WanderingPenitent Wrote:
(02-09-2010, 11:15 AM)WhollyRoaminCatholic Wrote: [Image: troll.jpg]

Any of you read Metatron's introduction into the forum? As far as I can tell he's not a troll but has a genuine quiry. And he fully admits to not being a Christian. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt first.
I agree. My first thought was troll, but I looked at his very short post history and decided to be charitable for a while and see if he's a seeker or a troll.
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#42
Hello again. :)

Firstly, WhollyRoaminCatholic and Jacafamala, I'm most certainly not a troll. I've just been too busy to post other replies to this thread (job, life, you know...). Another indication that I'm not trolling is that I didn't just randomly post these quotes, but actually asked a question accompanying them. It's true, I should have looked more into the sources for them before posting, and I apologize for that - I assure you, I have a few more topics to discuss regarding the early Church, and this time I have the references to back them up.
I don't agree with Church policies on women personally - I think it was a policy instituted after Paul, who was an ex-Jew and very orthodox in his former faith, and he chose to bring the conservative patriarchal values into the Church. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think anything Jesus himself ever said can justify such an attitude.
That being said, whether those quotes were taken out of context or not, the fact remains that historically women in Christianity were mistreated, particularly in the Middle Ages. Even before, in antiquity, women were not allowed to speak in Church and were forbidden to approach the altar and to preach the faith (officially decreed by Church councils. See "Christianity and Paganism in the fourth to eighth centuries", by Professor Ramsay Macmullen, Yale University Press, pg. 7). I don't see what can possibly justify these rules.

As for:
(02-09-2010, 09:42 PM)fabricdragon Wrote: women were in fact denigrated horribly by the Albigensian and cathar heresy, which St Dominic used the Rosary and the teachings about Mary, to defeat.
", I don't personally know if they denigrated women, but I do know that the Cathars were in fact defeated by Pope Innocent III's crusade against them, which left tens of thousands of dead, in a massacre of unspeakable savagery. Have a read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian#Suppression

And to Magnificat, my namesake "Metatron" is the name of the Angel of the Divine Presence in Jewish mysticism. You're thinking of "Megatron" :P

Best regards to all.

Metatron
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#43
Quote:That being said, whether those quotes were taken out of context or not, the fact remains that historically women in Christianity were mistreated, particularly in the Middle Ages. Even before, in antiquity, women were not allowed to speak in Church and were forbidden to approach the altar and to preach the faith

Women still are not allowed in the sanctuary, and must wear a veil to show they are under their husbands authority.  And they may not preach.  And yes this is from the bible, St. Paul, St. Peter, and Genesis.  Calling this "mistreatment" is a laugh.  Mistreating them would be treating them like men.

You do know that you are on a Traditionalist forum don't you?  These doctrines come from the Bible and Church teaching.  If you have a question, ask it.  Otherwise you appear to be a troll.
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#44
(02-09-2010, 10:34 PM)James02 Wrote: Calling this "mistreatment" is a laugh.  Mistreating them would be treating them like men.

Well there you go. It seems you and I have different definitions of "mistreatment"
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#45
About this speaking in church. I can't see how this is relevant unless one is a charismatic, for that is the only kind of public worship service I know in which laypeople of either sex are allowed to speak in church. It is the right of the people to hear a sermon from a priest, not from any old fly-by-night who happens to come along.
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#46
(02-09-2010, 10:34 PM)James02 Wrote: Women still are not allowed in the sanctuary, and must wear a veil to show they are under their husbands authority.  And they may not preach.  And yes this is from the bible, St. Paul, St. Peter, and Genesis.  Calling this "mistreatment" is a laugh.  Mistreating them would be treating them like men.

I wish that people would read that quotation from St. Paul correctly. He mentions women obeying their husbands. He mentions women wearing veils in church. There is no connection between these two statements. In fact, he makes it clear that women veil themselves in church out of respect for the angels. And I ain't never met a man who was an angel.

However, I agree that it's not mistreatment for women to be forbidden to participate in clerical activities. It's just a question of men and women having different roles; it has nothing to do with inferiority.
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#47
(02-09-2010, 10:49 PM)Satori Wrote: About this speaking in church. I can't see how this is relevant unless one is a charismatic, for that is the only kind of public worship service I know in which laypeople of either sex are allowed to speak in church. It is the right of the people to hear a sermon from a priest, not from any old fly-by-night who happens to come along.

I suspect that worship in the 1st century Church, while still liturgical, was a few degrees less formal than what we're familiar with. My theory: whatever worship spaces they had were used not only for the liturgy, but for anything that the Christians did together. Presumably including even the agape feasts. It wouldn't surprise me, then, if the early Church made use of "testimonials" and "guest speakers". I haven't done intense reading into the early Church, though, so I can't say with any degree of authority. That;s just the vibe I get from the epistles and some other texts.
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#48
Quote: It's just a question of men and women having different roles; it has nothing to do with inferiority.
Inferior no.  Subordinate to men, yes.
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#49
Quote: Well there you go. It seems you and I have different definitions of "mistreatment"
No surprise there.  You are not Catholic.  The darkness hates the light and can not understand it.

The world hates me and hates what I believe in.  I accept that.
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#50
Well of course you are going to disagree with us. You are not a Christian. We can explain our views, but unless we have the same standards of morals you will simply not accept our justifications for them. Oh well.

(This is not meant to be presumptuous about our level of standards for morality, but our specific standards for morality).

Our views on the place of women regarding authority should not be equated with our views on women regarding their value and worth, which is the same as men if not in many cases greater.

We may not believe that women can be priests or teach from the pulpit, but that does not mean we believe they have nothing to say. We have three women listed as "Doctors of the Church," one of whom was known for rebuking the Pope, while still being loyal to his authority (Catherine of Sienna).

We may not believe that a wife should lead her husband around, but that does not mean we believe women can never lead. Quite the contrary when considering the honor we give to Mother Mary, Queen of all Creation. There also women saints that led such as the judge Deborah in the Old Testament book of Judges, or Saint Joan of Arc who led France against the English.

Women are veiled in church, yes, but so is the Tabernacle which contains what we believe whole-heartedly to be Our Lord Jesus Christ in the Flesh. The first Tabernacle of that kind was of course a woman, Mother Mary. Does veiling the women belittle them? Quite the contrary, it honors their womanhood just as removing hats honors manhood, by giving men a manly way of showing their due reverence to the presence of God just as woman have a womanly way of doing so.

You will not agree with us, simply put. I cannot give you a justification that will satisfy you. But we can explain. If you wish to hear the explanations than please continue to hear us out.
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