The Church fathers on women
#61
James,

"The Catholic Church believes that unless you die a Catholic, you will burn in hell".

This is the big statement, the one that makes dialogue between Christians and non-Christians impossible. But, I still gave it a try. And by the way, I view that as a belief. For me there's no evidence to substantiate that, other than Scripture, written by men. I could refute it easily, but I don't wish to offend anyone here, so I'll leave it at that.

"Evangelicals and Reformed Protestants believe that non-Christians burn in hell.  In fact, they believe most Catholics go to hell.  Jews believe that I am going to hell.  Muslims believe I am going to hell.  Nothing unique with Catholics."

That's exactly what I said. By "opposite attitude" I meant an attitude contrary to the willingness to listen, which I stated in my previous sentence. This is the general attitude of practicing devout Christians: intolerance. But, just a small correction to your statement: Muslims actually view Jews and Christians as "people of the book", who can potentially be saved, since they believe in God.

"You haven't asked any more questions.  If you are here to troll, please quit wasting both of our time."

I'm not trolling, I'm simply replying to posts and engaging in discussion. But since this is getting out of hand, this will be my last post in this thread, don't worry.

" I don't judge you. God will.  And He told us the criteria to be saved."

You don't know that for a fact.

"If you are a Jew (guessing from your name) then you believe I am going to hell.  Let me ask you, how can I "respect" Jews when they preach that Jesus is boiling in excrement?  How can I "respect" Muslims when they preach that they should kill me?"

How can they respect you when you're telling them they're going to hell?
And by the way, I'm not a monotheist (there you go. That should unleash some more tirades against me  ::))

" I wasn't commenting on "universality".  Man is a fallen race.  We need Jesus if we are to overcome our fallen nature.  And obtaining His Grace is open to all, and easily obtained (it's called baptism, not very difficult).  Without Jesus, you will be mired in your darkness."

I respect your belief, but for me Jesus is just one of many who can lead to salvation.

                                                                                            -“Arguing with a Christian is like trying to draw on water.”   
                                                                                                                                                         - Porphyry, 3rd century AD
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#62
Quote: You don't know that for a fact.
Actually I do.  Jesus said it.  He said He was God.  Either He was insane, or He was who He said He was.  His followers died rather than denounce Him.  Proves it.  Plus I have seen miracles with my own eyes.  But yes, you need Faith.  Pray to God for that and He will give it to you.

Quote: This is the big statement, the one that makes dialogue between Christians and non-Christians impossible. But, I still gave it a try. And by the way, I view that as a belief. For me there's no evidence to substantiate that, other than Scripture, written by men. I could refute it easily, but I don't wish to offend anyone here, so I'll leave it at that.
Actually telling you the truth makes dialogue possible.  Telling you lies to make you feel good is dishonest by definition.  As far as refuting us, that is impossible.  If you have an open heart, and are sincere, you won't offend us with your questions.

Quote: I respect your belief, but for me Jesus is just one of many who can lead to salvation.
That is a contradiction.  Jesus said He is the only way to salvation.  So you either accept Him or deny Him.  You can't say He is one of many, as you contradict Him.  By saying that, you reject Him.

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#63
Quote: This is a very obvious distinction between married people and non-married people.
You are correct.  A wife must obey her husband.  There is a distinction.

Quote: Reading your posts I can see that you are the kind of person who turns others away from Catholicism. Good luck with that.
I converted 2 and am working on a third.  My method is to tell them the Truth, which they suspect anyhow.
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#64
(02-10-2010, 04:03 AM)James02 Wrote: Actually I do.  Jesus said it.  He said He was God.  Either He was insane, or He was who He said He was.  His followers died rather than denounce Him.  Proves it. 

Err...... no, that doesn't prove Christ's divinity. It's a good evidence, because if the Resurrection didn't happen, the Apostles wouldn't have had any motive (that we can discern) to keep on going...... but that's not a proof, and to an unbeliever, this wouldn't be a followable line of logic. Islam and Sikhism both have a large body of martyrs, but it doesn't change a Christian's opinion of them in the slightest.

Just sayin'. I think the Christian faith is pretty rational, but the only "proof" is in miracles, and you have to prove the miracles to get anyone else to believe them. Otherwise, we take it on faith. There's nothing wrong with that.
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#65
Agreed.  In the end you will need Faith.  I think some of the miracles are proof.  The image of Our Lady of Guadeloupe, for instance.  It should have decomposed 200 years ago.  The incorruptible saints.  The Eucharistic miracles.  An amazing one is the "painting" in the cave in Colombia.  Even the Shroud of Turin.  Fatima, where we still have the newspaper accounts.  There's a lot of proof, though non-Catholics are probably ignorant of them.
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#66
Metatron,

There is more evidence for Christianity than you seem to believe there is. I suggest that you listen to the debates on the historicity of the Resurrection provided at the following address: http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/audio...mLaneCraig

God bless you.
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#67
(02-10-2010, 04:06 AM)James02 Wrote:
Quote: Reading your posts I can see that you are the kind of person who turns others away from Catholicism. Good luck with that.
I converted 2 and am working on a third.  My method is to tell them the Truth, which they suspect anyhow.

Don't be so arrogant.  The good Lord does the conversions.  We can only open the door.
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#68
(02-10-2010, 03:25 AM)Metatron Wrote: James,

"The Catholic Church believes that unless you die a Catholic, you will burn in hell".

This is the big statement, the one that makes dialogue between Christians and non-Christians impossible. But, I still gave it a try. And by the way, I view that as a belief. For me there's no evidence to substantiate that, other than Scripture, written by men. I could refute it easily, but I don't wish to offend anyone here, so I'll leave it at that.

Well of course it is a belief. We never claimed to have empirically deduced data on the fact that can be repeatedly tested in a controlled environment (and it is a good thing that we cannot). There are many who claim to have near-death experiences of Heaven and Hell, but that's besides the point. One could claim that to be conjecture just as much as they would scripture, but there are sources other than scripture. Many saints and mystics have said to have experienced both visions of heaven and purgatory, managing to write down what they have experienced. This is not to say that their data is scientifically testable, but it is an alternate source to Scripture regarding the afterlife.

It is the belief of the Catholic Church that the scriptures were written by the hand of men with the guidance of God. Christianity is not unique in this kind of belief. Jews believe the same thing regarding the Tanakh and Talmud, Muslims believe the same thing about the Quran, and Hindus believe the same thing about the Vedas.

Quote:"Evangelicals and Reformed Protestants believe that non-Christians burn in hell.  In fact, they believe most Catholics go to hell.  Jews believe that I am going to hell.  Muslims believe I am going to hell.  Nothing unique with Catholics."

That's exactly what I said. By "opposite attitude" I meant an attitude contrary to the willingness to listen, which I stated in my previous sentence. This is the general attitude of practicing devout Christians: intolerance. But, just a small correction to your statement: Muslims actually view Jews and Christians as "people of the book", who can potentially be saved, since they believe in God.
[...]
How can they respect you when you're telling them they're going to hell?

I think you are confusing respect with acceptance. I greatly respect the Muslim friend I have who tells me I am damned, and he respects me for doing the same to him. The reason we respect each other is because we are honest and consistent. There is a difference between dialogue and Ecumenism. We can discuss our differences, but we must admit they are differences and be honest about our own beliefs. The Truth is not gentle, no matter how much we like it to be. If what we believe is correct, then no matter how much we want to tell people they are not going to hell, we would be hypocritical for doing so. But we do say that we do not want them in hell.

To say we need to accept the differences between religions is like saying we need to accept the differences between the hunter and the vegan. The two can get along precisely when they are honest about their differences, and one is telling the other that they are wrong. They do not accept each other, but they can tolerate each other in hope that the other party will be persuaded or will simply understand to leave the issue (in dialogue at least) alone.


Quote:I respect your belief, but for me Jesus is just one of many who can lead to salvation.

                                                                                            -“Arguing with a Christian is like trying to draw on water.”   
                                                                                                                                                         - Porphyry, 3rd century AD

But if what Jesus said is true, and it would have to be for Himself to be a way to salvation, then all other ways do not work. You can say you want to accept all paths, but at least two of those paths admit that there is no other way and to say so on their part would be hypocritical: Christianity and Islam.

Christ said He was the Son of the Father, God. He said He was the Way, the Truth, and the Light, and that no one comes to the Father except through Himself. Either He was lying about this, which means He is no way to salvation at all; or He was mistaken, which also means He is no way to salvation; or He was telling the truth, in which case all other paths are not the truth.

This is not an interpretation, this is what He said according to the Gospels. For us to deny this would be hypocritical. We accept all people, we cannot accept all beliefs. We can tolerate and respect people that have other beliefs, but we cannot accept those beliefs as equal or else we are being hypocritical.
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#69
Quote: Don't be so arrogant.  The good Lord does the conversions.  We can only open the door.

I am not being arrogant, I am defending myself in an argument. But you speak the truth.  You can try as hard as you want to convert someone, but unless the Lord gives them that Grace, they won't convert.  This is the mystery between free will and predestination.  But you need to cooperate, and I am relaying what worked for me.  I think it is a very bad idea to hide the differences.

Lolanthe,
You and I probably agree on what the Church teaches about women.  I am just trying to draw attention to the brainwashing that goes on, i.e. if someone is in charge, then that means people under him are slaves and treated like crap.  That is false.  Just because the husband has authority over his wife doesn't mean she is treated like crap, abused, treated like a kid, etc....  That is the feminist B.S.  In fact, show me a woman with a weak husband, and I'll show you an unhappy woman.
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#70
Wandering Penitent gets the eloquence award.
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